How often do you call people out on their statements/ideas in person?

If someone says offensive things on a bus who I can tell is not quite there, for any variety of reasons, I'll be far less inclined to engage and argue.. for obvious reasons. It's very rare for people to even blurt out things mildly offensive in a public situation.. at least here. People are very good at keeping their potentially offensive thoughts to themselves. (Seattle is the P.C.-guilt capital of the country, I gather..)

At work, well, a big part of the company culture is to keep personal politics to oneself.. any type of harrassment is ripe for major lawsuit action here.. and people here are even better at keeping their personal political thoughts to themselves than even the folks on the buses. (People will bitch about others only in relation to work issues and nothing more.) It was only slightly awkward and tense when all the anti-Bush stickers adorned every door here before the election. Then they just disappeared after the election. That was that.

What I'm saying, of course, is that ILX is completely void of any mentalism at all.. obviously!

*whistles*

When I call people out, I either could care less what they think, or I care a lot what they think.

co-workers: cold put down in front of colleagues, or merely a look of contempt. emotion never shows

friends/family: talk about it i guess

Generally I find if I say something to people early enough, then I can do it in a much less loaded way, because I haven't built the situation into one where I have anything to lose. Er, once I get angry it's a really bad time for me to start "opening up".

I wouldn't bother much with for instance my mother (if hypothetically I hadn't stopped all communication with her) because she is ancient and stupid and nasty and a dead loss. Then there is the clarity of the offence - there are things that make you mark someone as suspect, but that aren't unequivocal enough to jump on. And I admit that I'd be less likely to call out a professional client - it's my job to be polite and friendly. There are limits to that, obviously, but I'd at least be more reticent, and more polite.

But I still end up doing this quite a lot. It's most often frustrating, and I can't say that I am confident I have changed anyone's mind, in all honesty. But I feel bad enough about not taking things farther on various occasions, so I don't think I'm likely to cut it down.

At this point, the worst agents of this are now dead.. and whoever is left over with racist thoughts in my family, I just let them be. They're old enough such that they're not going to change their minds. Absolute avoidance and just nodding my head, as if they were even more detached than strangers, is my policy now. There's just no point to arguing with people who grew up in the 40s and "were there, so they're justified in telling it like it is, and knowing better what these people are like, and what those people are like, etc. etc..

If younger people were able to convince their grandparents to reason (when there's a good excuse for the kid to be more reasonable in the debate), then that could definitely change things. Then again, younger folks tend to not vote even for themselves, if elligible to vote, so I'm not holding my breath.

There have been instances where I haven't called people on something ridiculous, mostly because they took me completely off-guard and I didn't have a way to respond that wouldn't have involved me screaming "FUCK YOU I HOPE YOU DIE" and you really can't yell that at work.

Calling people out is mostly useful when you have a fair expectation that they'll be ashamed of themselves once the offense is made clear, because they thought you were "with" them somehow, that you were "in on the joke" or whatever; they count on an audience, even of one. I don't want to have arguments AT ALL with these people -- but I do feel a responsibility to make clear that at least one person present won't be going along with the joke.

And finally, I don't want to be complicit in things that make me feel slimy. I mean, I can't stop you from being an asshole but I should let someone else make ME one?

E.g. I used to do this thing where if someone mispronounced a word I'd mispronounce it the same way -- because I didn't want to be the one who corrected them, didn't want them to think I was trying to be smart/snobby about it. Which I stopped doing because, well, people would probably appreciate not having their errors reinforced!

xpost - I carry the burden. I am too accommodating that way.

I worked in sales for too many years and learned to keep all my own opinions to myself while letting others rant and rant. The downside of this is people assume if you don't protest, you agree with their hateful nastiness. I was trapped in a situation once, driving a factory rep to a mine 6 hours away with him gradually spewing more and more and more racist, hateful shit. I put up with it the entire drive there and let the man give his spiel (which was lame and unsuccessful) to the customer. On the drive back, he started up again. I pulled over and said something to the effect that he didn't know me, didn't know my family, didn't know my history or opinion and never would and if he didn't shut the fuck up until we got back to his hotel in Phoenix, I would leave him there in the Arizona desert and he could tell it to the rattlesnakes.

Now, instead of putting up with shit from people I have to work with, I'm more likely to blankly state "I disagree with you, and will not continue this discussion" without feeling any need to argue or defend my own opinion.

I guess I'll say something to kids in shops or around the block, for language or disrespect to adults or whatever -- but all you can really do is ask nicely and see if they're inclined to oblige you. And other adults? If I'm not involved in any way, either as target or audience, I think it's just not my business. Perhaps this is what ipods are for.

XP: What Amanda said in 80% fewer words.

Also, basicallly, the better I know someone, the more likely I am to be argumentative with them. Calling out a total stranger is a recipe for disaster, unless that stranger happens to be driving like an idiot and is begging me to give him the finger and a long blast of the horn. Is driving "in person"? Probably not.

If someone is using a continuous litany of abusive language in front of my kids, I ask them to shut the fuck up. I've done that and will continue to. I once saw a guy nearly get in a fight with some teenagers when he told them to stop swearing around his mom. Classic.

I wish I was more of a crusading do-gooder when it comes to "mild" racial/sexual/religious intolerance or joking, but I'm not. I just don't have the energy to throw into it like I did when I was in my 20s. Which basically is a pitiful demonstration of morals and conviction.

I tried to stop a homeless dude (clutching a bottle of his own pee) from harrassing a young schoolboy on the train. The boy was about 8 years old and in a little uniform on his way to school. The man was asking him all sorts of personal questions (Where do you live? What's your name? Does your momma love you?) and the boy looked scared, so I sternly told the homeless dude to leave the kid alone.

He told me to "take those small ass titties and shut the fuck up." I think I made it worse, to be honest. The kid was embarrassed, the pee bottle fell to the ground and rolled toward me and the homeless dude was mad. I'd do it again, but I'm not sure if that's right or not.

I'm calmer and more articulate when I confront people by e-mail. If they are uncomfortable with confrontation, this is better for them to. Also, when writing I tend to mull it over longer and occasionally reconsider making my silent fury known.

I have a feeling that ownership of the space means something in these cases. If you're at a restaurant, for instance, and someone is being disruptive/offensive, I think you have the right to ask to be re-seated or to ask a staff member to deal with the offender. It should really be the establishment's problem; after all, if enough of their customers were offended etc etc. I guess you could speak to the other customer directly, but if they turn it into an out-and-out altercation, I wonder if you risk being labelled the "cause" of the problem by the staff...?

So basically I'd look for the relevant authority and make it THEIR problem. If they're not available or they don't act...then you have to decide all over again.

See that's the part I struggle with: sometimes ideas disrupt my peace more than actions do. I never do anything about it, and that's probably for the best. But I do get strong urges to say something -- something polite and non-argumentative, just to register that there are people nearby who don't find it acceptable. And obviously I don't mean that with political opinions or just annoying ideas or whatever, but more like the situation Martin was outlining upthread. Or what you're talking about with the kid. In neither cases did it necessarily "help," but for whatever reason it's important to me to know that someone, in each case, would stand up, however ineffectually, for basic decency.

But I guess I'm more of an observer than an act-on-principle kind of guy, which is probably better for my health in the long run: I don't ever get the crap beat out of me, plus I don't think my blood pressure really rises when people say terrible things. I suppose it's good to be jaded and accepting and people-will-be-people about that.

None of these things were running through my head after my titties were insulted. They're not even very snappy. Oh well.

Like the time I'm sitting in front of the guy who's complaining about my kid's T-ball skills. You want to be diplomatic and state the obvious (that my kid is 4, get a fucking clue you jockass) but instead you try to be as polite as possible. Kids bring out the strangest behavior in people.

Basic decency is either relative, or some people have none entirely.

Threads like this make me realise that I've let a really sheltered life.

If coworkers are doing this to bait me, then I'll let them know my recourse is to HR. If not, but it's loud enough or annoying enough, I'll ask them nicely to take it somewhere else. And pass judgement on them in my own mind and wish them heavily smoted, then relish the schadenfreude when they are. The last similar issue I had was a coworker who insisted on playing rabid froth-at-the-mouth talk radio in the lab where we both had to work. Wear closed headphones, asshole, or turn it OFF.

These cakes [gestures to display of Entemann's snack cakes] are a hot selling item! These cakes right here. But you always have these cakes [gestures to display of similar non-Entemann's snack cakes] right here in the front. That's not what the people want. These cakes are where the action is! You have to understand the customer -- you're ignoring the customer and you're going to go out of business ... FAGGOTS! [storms out without purchasing either cake]

ive a young fella at work bristling to call out any and everything, nice lad but desperate to be a martyr. his nerves dont seem so good.

If whatevers being said is not directly harming someone in present company, do not care / do not engage.

http://www.ilxor.com/ILX/Pages/register.jsp xp

does he sometimes wear a little cape and play the xylophone on letterman?

i have a hard time disagreeing with people - it's something i have to consciously work on. i'm getting a little better at it