which states are part of new england

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and if you heard the phrase revoultionary northern rural new england, where would you look geographically

― Anthony Easton, Monday, 30 January 2006 05:21 (twenty years ago)

up!

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 30 January 2006 05:23 (twenty years ago)

I'd assume it was Bryan Ferry's lad and a bunch of crazy foxhunters.

There's 6 New England states aren't there? It's fairly easily googlable, nicht war?

― Madam, I Am Not a Doctor (noodle vague), Monday, 30 January 2006 05:25 (twenty years ago)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_England

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 30 January 2006 05:26 (twenty years ago)

i got that list, and i got other lists that include ny, nj, vermont, delaware ?

― Anthony Easton, Monday, 30 January 2006 05:29 (twenty years ago)

and i would look down, blount

― Anthony Easton, Monday, 30 January 2006 05:29 (twenty years ago)

far out dude

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 30 January 2006 05:29 (twenty years ago)

Vermont's on the Wikipedia list. Even speaking as a Britishes that list has always been my understanding of what New England means. Top tucked away Northeast corner, innit, from a time when NY was still debatable territory?

― Madam, I Am Not a Doctor (noodle vague), Monday, 30 January 2006 05:32 (twenty years ago)

and if you heard the phrase revoultionary northern rural new england, where would you look geographically

i'd look out the window

― no bones, Monday, 30 January 2006 05:32 (twenty years ago)

ny no way except mayyyyyyybe far upstate
nj definitely not
vt yes
delaware wtf

― nervous (cochere), Monday, 30 January 2006 07:10 (twenty years ago)

delaware is mid-atlantic/chesapeake

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 30 January 2006 07:12 (twenty years ago)

It's all in New South Wales. But they were gonna be their own state, yes they where, until someone said they were gonna raise the price of milk in Newcastle if they did.

― ESTEBAN BUTTEZ~!!! (ESTEBAN BUTTEZ~!!!), Monday, 30 January 2006 07:19 (twenty years ago)

oh wai wrong new england!!

― ESTEBAN BUTTEZ~!!! (ESTEBAN BUTTEZ~!!!), Monday, 30 January 2006 07:20 (twenty years ago)

how far upstate, can you give me a map or perhaps a lat/long.

― Anthony Easton, Monday, 30 January 2006 08:10 (twenty years ago)

the far eastern border of the mainland (non-nyc)

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 30 January 2006 09:10 (twenty years ago)

It's pretty much everything east of New York State, or maybe the Hudson River, excluding New York City suburbs. Greenwich, Conn., doesn't seem like New England, but Hartford and New Haven do, I think.

― Nemo (JND), Monday, 30 January 2006 11:09 (twenty years ago)

contempo "New England" is roughly Maine, New Hampshire, Vermont, Rhode Island and all but the Southwestern 1/3 of Connecticut (New Milford to the mouth of the CT River?). while NY qua state is not part of New England, it makes sense to include parts of upstate NY, say, beginning East of the Hudson in maybe Northern Dutchess County, and extending NNW through the Adirondacks towards say Saranac Lake.

I don't know what "revoultionary northern rural new england" refers to out of context, or without knowing whether the speaker knows what they're talking about, but I would imagine that it may refer to parts of Northeastern NY and Western VT where Revolutionary War battles - Ft Ticonderoga, Saratoga - were fought. It may also refer to battles in the suburbs of Boston that may have been 'rural' at the time. The phrase may also refer to battles around NYC, and in NJ, DE and PA (as well as points South), but these areas are not regarded as "New England" today.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 13:23 (twenty years ago)

I think you could make a case for (Putnam and Westchester Counties) New York, (interior Northwestern) NJ, (Southeastern) PA, and (far Northern) DE being part of "New England" today, but there's some sort of subtle difference that causes them to be excluded.

Is New Haven really New England?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 13:36 (twenty years ago)

Not really, thanks to Yale, but head towards Providence RI and turn north before the border: the far eastern section of Connecticut is this odd rural backwater. Not sure about the prevalence of "Yankee" accents there tho; actually this sub-region reminds me of Kentucky.

― m coleman (lovebug starski), Monday, 30 January 2006 13:49 (twenty years ago)

A friend of mine from Dallas says New England is "any of those north-eastern states that hasn't got it's own NFL team and has to root for the Patriots".

― Hello Sunshine (Hello Sunshine), Monday, 30 January 2006 13:52 (twenty years ago)

Maybe not. x-post.

This map, showing which baseball team most people in a region support, is probably a pretty good indicator of New England's boundaries: wherever the Red Sox are the most popular team, there is New England. (And indeed it looks like New Haven is an exception, though that little purple dot may be another town.)

― Nemo (JND), Monday, 30 January 2006 13:54 (twenty years ago)

my definitiion basically seems to be rural white people plus Boston

New Haven was part of the early C17 New England Confederation, and Rhode Island was not

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 13:55 (twenty years ago)

Sorry, green dot.

― Nemo (JND), Monday, 30 January 2006 13:56 (twenty years ago)

NY, NJ, PA and DE were the "Middle Colonies." Many/most would refer to them (or at least their coastal Eastern sections) as the Mid-Atlantic. Contemporarily-speaking, I would extend "Mid-Atlantic" through the Delmarva Peninsula and along the coastal Eastern part of Virginia (the Tidewater region) and maybe down through the Outer Banks.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 14:07 (twenty years ago)

Yes but no one but a nutter would actually consider them to be part of New England. There isn't a subtle difference; they're just too far south. Hence why you might consider far upstate NY to be part of New England but not New Haven. The Patriots/Red Sox definition seems spot on, actually.

― Allyzay Rofflesberger (allyzay), Monday, 30 January 2006 15:47 (twenty years ago)

I would extend "Mid-Atlantic" through the Delmarva Peninsula and along the coastal Eastern part of Virginia

you and everybodhy else... "mid-atlantic" is pretty hard to dispute. it seems wrong to imagine anything around the geographic mason-dixon line as being "new england."

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:59 (twenty years ago)

while NY qua state is not part of New England, it makes sense to include parts of upstate NY, say, beginning East of the Hudson in maybe Northern Dutchess County...

no, it doesn't.

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:02 (twenty years ago)

that is, at least not northern dutchess. most people there would probably not consider themselves in new england.

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:04 (twenty years ago)

any of the "greater nyc" counties (westchester, rockland, dutchess, putnam, orange) probably shouldn't count as new england.

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:08 (twenty years ago)

yeah, i figured it probably starts further to the North in NY, but Northern Dutchess is essentially parallel to where it starts in CT.

and it spreads further West as it goes North in my conception, so when I say Northern Dutchess, I mean along the border, not along the Hudson

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:11 (twenty years ago)

connecticut: new england
new york: not

how could you not know vermont was in new england?? how much more new england can you get?

― Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:13 (twenty years ago)

is there a specific name for those mountain areas outside of NY - I see a distinct region going from Westchester through Sterling Forest to Morristown and on down the Delaware Valley. Does Princeton belong to this region or more to the mid-Atlantic? Do the Havens in CT?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:14 (twenty years ago)

gabb: can we say that anything north of the metro-north route is new england?

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:16 (twenty years ago)

"New York Metroplex Appalachia"

xpost: that's probably a decent definition

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:17 (twenty years ago)

the metro-north route(s), covering lower new york state and connecticut:

http://southsidecallbox.com/ilx/m-n.bmp

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:24 (twenty years ago)

that baseball map is really fascinating. Are the gray areas not just rural but unmediated ie out of the reach of major television markets? I'd love to know why teams have isolated pockets of fans in various distant locales - are these expatriate communities only or is something else at work? What accounts for some of those interior West loyalties?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:35 (twenty years ago)

NEW ENGLAND. Six states, no waiting. Parts of CT might not want to be associated w/ the rural backwater splendor of it all, but tough shit, Fairfield County, you are. Secede or DIE.

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:45 (twenty years ago)

Von Bulow: Only in New England

― David R. (popshots75`), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:47 (twenty years ago)

delaware is mid-atlantic/chesapeake

I've even seen some maps try to put Delaware in the American South. Funny that someone could try to throw it into New England as well.

any of those north-eastern states that hasn't got it's own NFL team and has to root for the Patriots

Best definition yet.

― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:52 (twenty years ago)

What's fun is seeing the regional differences in New England once you get up there. Vermont, New Hampshire, & Maine are pretty disdainful of the other three New England states and Maine itself seems like they would be happier if the other five (if not the other 49) would simply drop dead.

Maine is the first place where I heard the word "Massholes" used to describe the gentryfiers.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:53 (twenty years ago)

yeah, i think of maine as being part of the maritimes!

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:56 (twenty years ago)

I've even seen some maps try to put Delaware in the American South

the delmarva peninsula is where the geographical/cultural shift into the south kinda begins, but "real" southerners probably wouldn't consider it the south, no.

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:00 (twenty years ago)

I think the fact that Delaware was the first state confuses people.

― jaymc (jaymc), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:01 (twenty years ago)

Hahaha, the first place I heard the word "Massholes" was in Cambridge, MA, and it was being used by some of my classmates to describe some of my other classmates.

I find it kind of bizarre that (primarily) NYC-Centric people are trying to shuffle bits of upstate New York onto New England while claiming bits of Connecticut! You've already got a ginormous city, stop being greedy.

Also, given that New England already contains Harvard, Princeton, Dartmouth and Brown, how does New Haven containing Yale make it distinct from the rest of New England...?

― Dan (Odd Thread) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:03 (twenty years ago)

I find it kind of bizarre that (primarily) NYC-Centric people are trying to shuffle bits of upstate New York onto New England

hey, i'm just trying to help anthony out! i don't actually believe that any of those areas are new england, i'm just trying to come up with a couple of places that MIGHT plausibly fit the definition.

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:06 (twenty years ago)

we're actually pushing parts of "upstate" NY (anything North of the Bronx is upstate, afaic) out of New England, though I'd like to know what to call the almost-New England diaspora.

I didn't get m coleman's yale comment either at first, but I think the point was that Yale makes up half of New Haven's population, which isn't true of other Ivy locales, and draws far more non-New Englanders (and foreigners) than say Dartmouth.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:11 (twenty years ago)

How large is Dartmouth, actually? Or Princeton, for that matter?

― Dan (Ivy Fun) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:12 (twenty years ago)

dan that's just wacky ol' gabbneb. i think it's nuts.

― hstencil (hstencil), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:12 (twenty years ago)

yeah, it's my wacky refusal to pay attention to arbitrary state boundaries. if you want to talk about states, New England is the six above, full stop. but it's only the six because those are the only ones where most of the land area falls in the boundaries. I think it's legitimate to recognize that while we don't talk about NY State being part of New England because NY goes 300 miles to the West, there are small parts that are contiguous with New England that count. Does New England magically stop at the Mass border in the Berkshires and refuse to cross into NY?

and I'm not claiming Southern CT as part of NYC (though there are lots of people who commute), I'm claiming it for a distinct region that is neither NYC nor New England which I'd like to come up with a name for. but part of that region - parts of New Haven, Fairfield and Litchfield counties, including New Haven city - are included in the New York Consolidated Metropolitan Statistical Area.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:28 (twenty years ago)

the NY CMSA also includes all of Dutchess County

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:28 (twenty years ago)

Skipping 14 messages at this point... Click here if you want to load them all.

it's up by new england right?

― j blount (papa la bas), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:05 (twenty years ago)

Yes, that is silly--ike a "soul music" map without Memphis, Tenn.

E-mail the guy, maybe he'll add Canada.

― Nemo (JND), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:09 (twenty years ago)

I think the reason why some people (especially West Coast folk) would include New York into New England is because they think that Long Island is Rhode Island.

― elmo, patron saint of nausea (allocryptic), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:10 (twenty years ago)

i hope you're joking

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:12 (twenty years ago)

you know I questioned RI before, but figured it had to be really NE because Western CT was. but if you look at that spheres of influence map, a lot of RI falls into NY rather than Boston.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:12 (twenty years ago)

i mean Eastern CT of course

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:13 (twenty years ago)

i know a lot of new yorkers who'd be thrilled to let staten island secede and become part of new england!

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:13 (twenty years ago)

Not joking. xpost

― elmo, patron saint of nausea (allocryptic), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:13 (twenty years ago)

yeah, sometimes people are like "where are you from?" and i'm like "rhode island." and they're like "long island?" and i'm like "no..."

― Special Agent Gene Krupa (orion), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:30 (twenty years ago)

Just because they're both islands doesn't mean that they're the same place! Sheesh...

― Pleasant Plains /// (Pleasant Plains ///), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:31 (twenty years ago)

Wikipedia says Long Island can be considered the geographical border between New England and Mid-Atlantic

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:34 (twenty years ago)

I am so tempted to edit that.

― Dan ("... If You Are A Cock.") Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 30 January 2006 19:36 (twenty years ago)

As to the MA/NY line: the mountains are still the Berkshires until they get to the Hudson and Catskillize, and the people who live there may be cognizant of the fact that the Yankees are an evil baseball team, but NONE OF THAT makes it New England! It's Upstate New York!

― Beth Parker (Beth Parker), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:30 (twenty years ago)

TO CLEAR UP ANY POTENTIAL CONFUSION I AM NOT TRYING TO CALL GABBNEB A COCK

― Dan (Oops) Perry (Dan Perry), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:31 (twenty years ago)

Ah go on now, yes you were.

― C J (C J), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:36 (twenty years ago)

I don't want to change the world.

― Stephen X (Stephen X), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:39 (twenty years ago)

Are you looking for another gir-ir-ir-ir-ir-l?

― C J (C J), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:41 (twenty years ago)

TS: LONG ISLAND VS. BURLINGTON COUNTY, NEW JERSEY

http://www.fhwa.dot.gov/environment/conformity/nonattain/pm25pages/images/nynjct_newyork-nnewjesery-longisland.jpg

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Monday, 30 January 2006 20:48 (twenty years ago)

my ears are bleeding.

― no bones, Monday, 30 January 2006 23:56 (twenty years ago)

revoultionary northern rural new england

north of penobscot bay/maine
west of 114 to st johnsbury/vermont. i think 89 ends in burlington so anything north of that.

are you planning a missile attack?

― no bones, Tuesday, 31 January 2006 00:01 (twenty years ago)

i had not considered that revolutionary might refer to today

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 00:05 (twenty years ago)

im from old england, and i thought new england was purely me, nh, vt, ma, ri, ct. and that while driving through upstate kind of feels like new england, it just...isnt.

it is disturbing that this isnt somehow clear cut, i shouldnt be more definitive on this than...americans. though, on the other hand, i would welcome clarification on whether todmorden is intrinsically yorkshire or lancashire

― terry lennox. (gareth), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 00:23 (twenty years ago)

upstate ny, that is. as in 'it isnt'

― terry lennox. (gareth), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 00:25 (twenty years ago)

which parts of upstate ny did you drive thru?

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 00:28 (twenty years ago)

oh, only as far as albany, then we turned east into vt. wait, does albany count as upstate? surely it does?

― terry lennox. (gareth), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 00:59 (twenty years ago)

it feels like everything north of...yonkers, is upstate!

on other occasions, we got the train to beacon, and the boat(!) to tarrytown

― terry lennox. (gareth), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 01:00 (twenty years ago)

it's upstate, yes. and i might count New York East and North of it as arguably New England. Beacon and Tarrytown are also "upstate" for me, but are not New England.

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 01:04 (twenty years ago)

I am baffled at how this thread has gone on so long. No no no, NONE of New York is New England. NONE.

― elmo, patron saint of nausea (allocryptic), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 01:38 (twenty years ago)

Yeah, this thread is ridiculous. New England is a very clearly and precisely defined geographical area. It is six states. Some parts new york or wherever may have some new england-esque qualities, but that doesn't mean they are in new england. This is like saying pittsburgh is in ohio because it's more like ohio than it is like philly.

― stewart downes (sdownes), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 01:48 (twenty years ago)

though some of these maps are really cool, so this thread has been worth it just for that.

― stewart downes (sdownes), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 01:52 (twenty years ago)

I was talking with a co-worker the other day that New England should make a formal declaration giving Connecticut away to the "Tri-States" of NY/NJ/CT. I haven't met (m)any people who are fond of Connecticut here in Massachusetts.

― Michael F Gill (Michael F Gill), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 01:56 (twenty years ago)

I dunno, there could be a case for parts of Long Island to be considered New England.

― tokyo nursery school: afternoon session (rosemary), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 02:18 (twenty years ago)

yeah, I guess I'm being inconsistent in that I'm rejecting Southern CT on political grounds, but including Northeastern NY on physiographic grounds. interestingly, this this modified Fenneman map includes Southern CT, the NY burbs, and a tiny sliver East of Albany in New England, but deems the slice between Champlain and Adirondacks the St Lawrence Valley

― gabbneb (gabbneb), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 02:36 (twenty years ago)

This is like saying pittsburgh is in ohio because it's more like ohio than it is like philly.

Or as I once heard, Pennsylvania is Philadelphia surrounded by Alabama.

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 02:57 (twenty years ago)

Thread follow-ups to "Where does Northern California begin?"

― Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 02:58 (twenty years ago)

New England = Maine, Massachusetts, Vermont, New Hampshire, Connecticut and Rhode Island.

― luna (luna.c), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 20:27 (twenty years ago)

"Where does Northern California begin?"

just north of tijuana.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 20:31 (twenty years ago)

If you can't drive an hour to see a lighthouse, eat cheap lobster, or hear an old yankee say "you can't get there from here," you are not in New England.

Ayuh.

― elmo, patron saint of nausea (allocryptic), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 20:35 (twenty years ago)

you can do all that on eastern long island.

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 20:50 (twenty years ago)

Someday I'm going to snap and modify every subjunctive sentence I find on Wikipedia so that they end with "... if you are a cock."

― Dan (Mark My Words) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 20:51 (twenty years ago)

i've thought about doing similar on ILM!

― dancing chicken (Jody Beth Rosen), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 20:56 (twenty years ago)

I'm not sure anyone would notice!

― Dan (Free Exchange Of Ideas) Perry (Dan Perry), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 20:57 (twenty years ago)

i would never have predicted this would draw 100+ answers. but what do i know.

This is like saying pittsburgh is in ohio because it's more like ohio than it is like philly.

pittsburgh is not really like ohio at all, though. ohio is flat.

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 21:00 (twenty years ago)

ohio ain't flat. try one cincy metro area sometime.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 21:03 (twenty years ago)

'sides, of course it's round at the sides and HI in the middle, dude.

― hstencil (hstencil), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 21:04 (twenty years ago)

okay, fair enough. i don't want to try it, tho

― mookieproof (mookieproof), Tuesday, 31 January 2006 21:06 (twenty years ago)