Stalin - classic or dud

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Essentially this is a thread for Bethune to talk about how great the hero of the workers was, so that the thread on market economics is not sidetracked by discussion of this important issue.

DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:00 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I always think having tens of millions of people killed looks shit on your historical c.v.

The Man in the Iron-On Mask (noodle vague), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:04 (twelve years ago) Permalink

BROSEPH STALIN

latebloomer (latebloomer), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:04 (twelve years ago) Permalink

http://www.reason.com/0402/bagge.shtml

J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:10 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I don't really want to get sucked into this because I don't think you're really serious. It's hard to tell on line. What is clear is that a lot of "fact" about the soviet economy is actually myth promulgated by a collaborationist western media--esp the US media structures.

How could e. Germany have been the world's sixth largest economy (no less an "objective" authority than the CIA) if they weren't doing something right. Not to mention basic human rights and equitable distribution of resources--completely absent in the Cheney-Rove regime we're labouring in now.

Still, you'll obviously believe whatever you're fed by CNN no matter what the facts say.

bethune, Monday, 30 January 2006 16:20 (twelve years ago) Permalink

collaborationist

ooo neat! i'm learning new words to-day!

kingfish kuribo's shoe (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:21 (twelve years ago) Permalink

So wait, Bethune is Eric Hobsbawm's trolling identity?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:22 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Anyway, my standard line is that anyone who praises Stalin in terms like Bethune (or Hobsbawm) is stupid enough not to realize that he would have happily had them killed early on.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:23 (twelve years ago) Permalink

So why switch? What brought down the wall? What was Gorbachev even on about?

TOMBOT, Monday, 30 January 2006 16:24 (twelve years ago) Permalink

http://www3.sympatico.ca/pbsproule/W11.jpg

Huk-L (Huk-L), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:25 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I'm confused now. Was the Holocaust made up too?

The Man in the Iron-On Mask (noodle vague), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:29 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Not to mention basic human rights

Can I have some of what you're smokin', dude?

M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:30 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Otoh, Joe Steel is the coolest dictator name ever.

M. White (Miguelito), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:31 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Or a rejected boss name from "Punch-Out."

kingfish kuribo's shoe (kingfish 2.0), Monday, 30 January 2006 16:33 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Okay. I get it. The idea of a centrally planned economy is still hard for a lot of people to accept after years of distortions and many outright lies. But there was never any shortage of arts funding, or any shortage of incredible self-expression in artistic directions. This has been totally crushed in the cheney-rove regime where free expression is the most dangerous thing. But that's never freely admitted. It's always in the guise of insufficient funding. Please!

bethune, Monday, 30 January 2006 17:00 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Dullardry, thy name is Bethune.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:01 (twelve years ago) Permalink

this is fun !

AleXTC (AleXTC), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:03 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Just cos Thecheneyroveregime is in the wrong, doesn't make E European socialism right. There wasn't a shortage of cash for ballet and gymnastics, but neither was there a shortage of people geting shot.

beanz (beanz), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:06 (twelve years ago) Permalink

OTOH, DNFTT

beanz (beanz), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:06 (twelve years ago) Permalink

This has been totally crushed in the cheney-rove regime where free expression is the most dangerous thing. But that's never freely admitted.

Well, we can't freely admit it, can we? Our self-expression has been totally crushed!

Nemo (JND), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:07 (twelve years ago) Permalink

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miracle_on_Ice

TOMBOT, Monday, 30 January 2006 17:10 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Where are the bolshois of the west? There aren't any. The "free market" economies don't produce sufficient surplusses to nurture true artistic expression coupled with the cheney-rove oppression of free speech (and its counterparts). Again with the myth of people getting shot. Nothing like the killing fields of cheney-rove. Art could never exist in that environment anyway. It doesn't even make sense.

bethune, Monday, 30 January 2006 17:13 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Vladimir Ashkenazy, one of the great virtuoso pianists of our era, tells Stuart Jeffries about conducting, the KGB and his defection to the west

"It was a disgusting time. Even in terms of music, we were so insular. We didn't really know western music at all. In 1956 I went to Brussels to perform and I came back with suitcases filled with scores of music by Ravel and Debussy - and I suddenly became a focal point for musicians in Moscow who wanted to study these rare documents. What a terrible indictment of our country. It was an embarrassment to be Russian. In 1955, the Boston Symphony Orchestra came and in one concert they performed the Soviet anthem. Before I heard them, I thought our orchestras played it well, but the Americans played it much more beautifully. The problem was our instruments were no good. It was a national shame. But throughout that time visiting western orchestras always gave us music lessons in performing music beautifully."

TOMBOT, Monday, 30 January 2006 17:17 (twelve years ago) Permalink

OSIP MANDELSTAM TO THREAD - oh no wait, he did in Stalin's Gulag.

http://www.lexia.com.ar/rippers/NKVD_Mandelstam.jpg

DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:18 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I just paid 50 quid for my mother to go and see the English National Ballet do Sleeping Beauty. This may or may not be relevant.

Sam (chirombo), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:19 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Art could never exist in that environment anyway

Interesting point, which I disagree with. Happy times = bad art and vice versa, I think.

beanz (beanz), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:19 (twelve years ago) Permalink

And if you don't believe people were killed, I'm not going to persuade you I guess. Any evidence would simply be propaganda.

beanz (beanz), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:21 (twelve years ago) Permalink

One malcontent who didn't think the "instruments" were good enough is suspect anyway.

bethune, Monday, 30 January 2006 17:21 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Ned, stop sullying Hobsbawm's good name! Have you read The Age of Extremes? I think he gives quite an interesting, fair appraisal. He certainly doesn't share Bethune's views, as espoused on the free market thread.

Cathy (Cathy), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:21 (twelve years ago) Permalink

i think Ned was just proud of knowing a communist historian.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:25 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I can understand the need to take a controversial view and stomp on received wisdom Calum Bethune but you're on to a loser with Stalin I'm afraid. Besides, some people get offended about mass murder so lay off the "again with the myth" stuff, perhaps.

beanz (beanz), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:26 (twelve years ago) Permalink

"One malcontent"

1. Answer my first question about why an entire nation would abandon a working system in exchange for chaos, uncertainty and extensive poverty in adjustment

2. Point to the works of art which the Soviet era is famous for that AREN'T Socialist Realism posters or the national anthem. Alternatively, explain why Ashkenazy, Tabachnik, et al. are so unworthy and foolish.

3. Explain how individualism is served better by Stalin's methods. Seriously.

TOMBOT, Monday, 30 January 2006 17:28 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I mean you guys' hockey team won SIX out of SEVEN Winter Olympics running! Why is there a movie about our guys winning ONCE in the 20th century and no movie about the USSR's gold medals?

TOMBOT, Monday, 30 January 2006 17:30 (twelve years ago) Permalink

bethune, forgive us. running across a stalin booster in 2005 is pretty amazing. you may be worth money on ebay.

Tracer Hand (tracerhand), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:31 (twelve years ago) Permalink

bethune:

http://www.liberafolio.org/bildoj/deklarodemilitastato.jpg

Eisbär (llamasfur), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:32 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Solzhenitsyn was just pissed off his fountain pen kept leaking

beanz (beanz), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:33 (twelve years ago) Permalink

bethune, forgive us. running across a stalin booster in 2005 is pretty amazing. you may be worth money on ebay.


ok, who saw him first ?

AleXTC (AleXTC), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:33 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Stalin cheers up followers, spites Azhagiri

TOMBOT, Monday, 30 January 2006 17:36 (twelve years ago) Permalink

http://www.karl-grobe.de/pics/portrait/hoxha.jpg

DV (dirtyvicar), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:43 (twelve years ago) Permalink

This environment is turning increasingly hostile. Most of you aren't serious anyway. TOMBOT's question about a society trading a smoothly functioning system for chaos is a good one however. This demonstrates the dangers of trusting western offers of assistance, being seduced by the west's apparent success (all that glitters, etc.) Coupled with actual cold war sabotage by the same "friendly" western powers. The technology embargo was the last straw: if the US and w. Europe were such good friends, why the embargo on inexpensive computers that would have smoothed the cental economic planning in an increasingly booming economy. Most russians would welcome a return of the prior regime (pre-Yeltsin, of course)

bethune, Monday, 30 January 2006 17:44 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Ned, stop sullying Hobsbawm's good name!

I have not thought much of Hobsbawm since this post from mark s:

hobsbawm is and always has been a dismal cultural hypocrite - key sentence: " Whenever Hobsbawm enters a politically sensitive zone, he retreats into hooded, wooden language, redolent of Party-speak."

EH even wrote about jazz, which he loved, under a pseudonym, so as not to fall into disrepute w.the party (jazz of course being a music where "message" and "medium" can't be cut adrift from one another, as per the standard-issue brainless idealism of the line enrique quotes)


-- mark s (mar...), November 3rd, 2003.

The article Mark linked to is regrettably no longer available for free, but is worth reading if you're not familiar with it.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 30 January 2006 17:52 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Hobsbawm is mainly notable for his insularity. The period covered in "the making of the english working class" is largely irrelevant. The key changes in societal structures were taking place far away from england.

bethune, Monday, 30 January 2006 17:58 (twelve years ago) Permalink

running across a stalin booster in 2005 is pretty amazing.

seriously, i'm more awed than appalled. it's like frozen caveman or something.

gypsy mothra (gypsy mothra), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:08 (twelve years ago) Permalink

I've found bethune...
http://2.srv.fotopages.com/2/5421048.jpg

jocelyn (Jocelyn), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:23 (twelve years ago) Permalink

AFAICS, bethune is a put-on. Or a Socialist Worker Party recruit.

However, if not, then it is just a simple matter of bethune not having learned that, if one point of view is obviously wrong, it does not make the opposite side obviously right. The propaganda wars of the twentieth century were like Duelling Banjos - both sides were playing the same damn lying banjo.

Aimless (Aimless), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:42 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Ned, you're terribly unfair to Eric Hobsbawm!

trappist monkey, Monday, 30 January 2006 18:49 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Er sorry, I've read further down the thread and seen that's been adressed.

trappist monkey, Monday, 30 January 2006 18:55 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Then you know the basics of my answer.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Monday, 30 January 2006 18:56 (twelve years ago) Permalink

Hey all I genuinely found some of that stuff in the thread interesting - sourced and commented on. Yes I saw all of the apologist crap below that but there was an account of stuff that you don't usually hear from that era. I haven't had the energy to engage with but I don't mean to cause offense, and obviously I am a communist sympathiser.

In the end its just a link though.

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:49 (one year ago) Permalink

the 1936 constitution was infamous for bearing no resemblance whatever to the polity it attached to: i know you know this stuff when you haven't got yr adolescent edgelord hat on, trotsky wrote about it in books you lent me

historian zhukov is a well known reactionary nuisance

mark s, Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:56 (one year ago) Permalink

Have never met or interacted with a 'tankie' in my life, tbh.

Wewlay Bewlay (Tom D.), Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:59 (one year ago) Permalink

me neither, know a ton of trots mind you

-_- (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:01 (one year ago) Permalink

One problem with relentless propaganda, as we all can verify from personal observation of politics, is that every action and every decision is spun as equally excellent in its effect and profoundly moral in its constitution. Or, from the opposition pov, all are equally horrifying and morally bankrupt. They all get put through the same mill. In a landscape so flattened and robbed of distinctive features, it is very easy to get lost.

A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:02 (one year ago) Permalink

almost* prefer tankies to trots - somehow they seem more honest to me? * but not really

Mordy, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:02 (one year ago) Permalink

ugh, in the mid-90s i knew a whole gang of the pseudo-marxists in the RCP, which then became the libertarian take-churn machine spiked

(tho to be fair i don't know if they stayed with it all the way down the road)

(lol a french woman i know who had an affair w/one of them said he had the tiniest penis she had ever encountered)

mark s, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:04 (one year ago) Permalink

One problem with relentless propaganda, as we all can verify from personal observation of politics, is that every action and every decision is spun as equally excellent in its effect and profoundly moral in its constitution. Or, from the opposition pov, all are equally horrifying and morally bankrupt. They all get put through the same mill. In a landscape so flattened and robbed of distinctive features, it is very easy to get lost.

― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, August 24, 2017 6:02 PM (forty-seven seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

OTM. It's "the single greatest decision, the best action, tremendously good" vs "Fake news. Sad!"

Le Bateau Ivre, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:08 (one year ago) Permalink

the first woman i ever loved is one of the most prominent trots in scotland (not tommy sheridan)

-_- (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:12 (one year ago) Permalink

i know you know this stuff when you haven't got yr adolescent edgelord hat on, trotsky wrote about it in books you lent me

OK, sure - certain other accounts (like that twitter thread) do pass me by, and that's a minefield (as er my revival clearly demonstrates), but I like to balance out from the way this stuff is written about by most ppl in the UK where the agenda behind it is to maintain the status quo in UK politics (Applebaum, Sebag Montefiore, people like that).

xyzzzz__, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:13 (one year ago) Permalink

(not tommy sheridan)

ron howard voice: it was t

mark s, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:18 (one year ago) Permalink

Love the ron howard voice meme

jk rowling obituary thread (darraghmac), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:22 (one year ago) Permalink

Stalin idk. He had a tough job and at least it's conclusively proved that leftist politics are nonsense, in the long run that was possibly worth it at thirty million dead or w/e?

Gonna say "too soon to call"

jk rowling obituary thread (darraghmac), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:24 (one year ago) Permalink

So what's new, everyone? Is Stalin cool now? Would he have won in a heads-up race against Trump? Just trying to stay on top of things here.

Moodles, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:26 (one year ago) Permalink

Stalin: one of history's great monsters, but is he the greatest?

Moodles, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:28 (one year ago) Permalink

Nope. Well established fact that Jimmy Carter is history's greatest monster.

A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:30 (one year ago) Permalink

Discovery channel virtual mockup dictator tourney of death

jk rowling obituary thread (darraghmac), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:31 (one year ago) Permalink

I won't hear a word against Robespierre though, what that poor boy had to put up with!

Wewlay Bewlay (Tom D.), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:33 (one year ago) Permalink

That's it Tom, ppl won't look at things in context.

Billy Wright was the greatest leader we never had

passé aggresif (darraghmac), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:34 (one year ago) Permalink

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9e/Davidlowrendezvous.png/330px-Davidlowrendezvous.png
https://i.pinimg.com/736x/fe/2b/0c/fe2b0ce590a910f5a8fa90ed869220c2--political-cartoons-honeymoons.jpg
Interesting (or maybe not!), contrast in depictions of Stalin. From Low's Alexender II type imposing strongman, that probably was probably more a symptom of UK Empire insecurity than Berryman's portrayal of him as the bonnie bridesmaid.

calzino, Thursday, 24 August 2017 23:10 (one year ago) Permalink

two months pass...

kotkin pt. 2 is out; only 1184 pages in hardcover

mookieproof, Thursday, 2 November 2017 23:43 (one year ago) Permalink

£15 for an e-book gtf! I might be forced to steal this I'm afraid.

calzino, Thursday, 2 November 2017 23:46 (one year ago) Permalink

thx for the tip - just ordered my copy. i'm really excited.

Mordy, Thursday, 2 November 2017 23:49 (one year ago) Permalink

This is good on Akhmatova and Stalin, and Sappho, and the act of preservation.

xyzzzz__, Monday, 6 November 2017 22:15 (one year ago) Permalink

thx for the heads up!

Οὖτις, Monday, 6 November 2017 22:18 (one year ago) Permalink

"Waiting for Hitler" is a great title

Οὖτις, Monday, 6 November 2017 22:20 (one year ago) Permalink

I just started Kotkin's vol 2 book earlier. I'm guessing he will later posit that he murdered both Gorky + Kirov.

calzino, Monday, 6 November 2017 22:24 (one year ago) Permalink

one month passes...

The description of Yezhov as the type of street urchin who would pour kerosene on a cat's tail and light it up for amusement had me chuckling. What a completely grotesque character, "the little blackberry" doesn't quite do him justice!

"Yezhov not only drank," recalled Zinaida Glikina, a friend of Yezhov's wife, Yevgeniya. "In addition, he deteriorated and lost the visage of not only a Communist but of a human being."

calzino, Friday, 22 December 2017 16:52 (eleven months ago) Permalink

he was under a lot of stress tbf

difficult listening hour, Friday, 22 December 2017 17:58 (eleven months ago) Permalink

aye, being top NKVD dog was pretty stressful, and your chances of ever quietly retiring weren't too hot.

calzino, Friday, 22 December 2017 21:05 (eleven months ago) Permalink

one of the many perplexing things about tankies how do they explain away the prominence of absolutely skin-crawlingingly awful people at the nexus of soviet power during his reign? I mean Beria almost makes Yezhov look like a nice wee guy

khat person (jim in vancouver), Friday, 22 December 2017 21:09 (eleven months ago) Permalink

I stuck Kotkin's bio in my Amazon list, hoping one of my friends will take the hint :(

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 22 December 2017 21:19 (eleven months ago) Permalink

presumably the same way they justify everything else: instructions for making omelets xp

Mordy, Friday, 22 December 2017 21:19 (eleven months ago) Permalink

insistence that good ends justify using evil means. this line is taken by people of every political persuasion. it's an equal opportunity rationalization.

A is for (Aimless), Friday, 22 December 2017 21:55 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Yes, a lot of UK Conservative commentators/voters/arseholes use that rationale to justify the escalating austerity related deaths of disabled people since 2010.

calzino, Friday, 22 December 2017 22:10 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Kotkin on The Great Terror:

"Public receptiveness to the charges, in turn, was facilitated by the widely shared tenet that building socialism constituted an adversarial crusade against myriad "enemies" at home and abroad, and by the circumstance that the system was not supposed to have a new elite, but did. The new elite's apartments, cars, servants, concubines, and imported luxuries were often visible, while workers and farmers lived in hovels and went hungry. This did not mean that every ordinary Soviet inhabitant was eager for the blood of bigwigs, but few tears were shed."

calzino, Friday, 22 December 2017 23:25 (eleven months ago) Permalink

well specifically on it's targeting of major public figures.

calzino, Friday, 22 December 2017 23:28 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Kotkin spoke at the bookstore I work at part time and he was fucking hilarious. He slayed quite honestly.

treeship 2, Friday, 22 December 2017 23:30 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Such a treat after Jonathan israel, who kept absent mindedly waving the microphone away from his face, rendering much of his talk inaudible.

treeship 2, Friday, 22 December 2017 23:32 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Yeah, I like youtubing his bookshop appearances. Great accent as well.

calzino, Friday, 22 December 2017 23:38 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Yagoda had never risen higher than nonvoting candidate of the Central Committee, and had never been much of a public face for the regime, absent from prominent public photographs (an exception was the White Sea-Baltic Canal book, which, however, was withdrawn). But his corpse was said to have been displayed on the grounds of his legendary dacha, located outside Moscow on the Kaluga highway, the site of a prerevolutionary estate that he had occupied in 1927. The complex had become part of the Kommunarka state farm and had served as a well stocked country club for Yagoda's use, but then it became a killing field. Kommunarka shared that function with nearby Butovo, also just outside Moscow, a former stud farm that the NKVD had seized from its owner. Mass burials of of ashes also took place at the former Donskoi Monastery (1591), whose crematorium (completed in October 1927) was the first in Russia or the Soviet Union.

Tukhachevsky's ashes had been dumped here in a mass grave. Initially, victims' ashes were buried in a common graves using a shovel, but soon the NKVD bought in an excavator and a bulldozer. At Kommunarka, up to 14,000 executions would take place, primarily of political, military, scientific, and cultural figures, whose bones were sometimes seen in the jaws of prowling dogs.

calzino, Saturday, 30 December 2017 01:17 (eleven months ago) Permalink

I got the second volume as a Xmas present! 300 pages in. He's discovering the power of ci-ne-mah.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Saturday, 30 December 2017 01:23 (eleven months ago) Permalink

"no I didn't say a movie about destitution and far-mine, I said those collective farms are looking good, Soso"

calzino, Saturday, 30 December 2017 01:35 (eleven months ago) Permalink

So it turns out Beria was a true OG counterrevolutionary - working for Musavat counterintelligence during the British occupation of Baku. Stalin knew this and had Kaminsky shot for talking about it at the '37 central committee plenum. It must been a real pisser to get 10 years in a gulag or shot on trumped charges of being an internal state enemy, when it was widely known, but dangerous to mention that Beria was effectively a British spy during the revolution.

calzino, Wednesday, 3 January 2018 19:06 (eleven months ago) Permalink

I just read that bit in Kotkin.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 3 January 2018 19:14 (eleven months ago) Permalink

It was a bit of revelation for me, never read it in any other books - if my memory serves me right. Only that dreadful fucker could get away with having a past like that revealed during the deadly super-heated phase of The Great Terror.

calzino, Wednesday, 3 January 2018 19:25 (eleven months ago) Permalink

The assassination of Slutsky is classic Soviet-fic: Frinovsky keeps him distracted in his office while an agent quietly enters with a chlorophene rag, swiftly incapacitates him whilst a 2nd agent enters and injects the poison into his arm, before he knows what has hit him he has tragically died of a heart attack. And then Stalin undoes it all by posthumously declaring him an enemy of the people anyway.

In some ways Krushchev the "sycophant and boot-licker" who'd left mountains of corpses in Ukraine on his way up, is almost more hate-able than Beria, not that B has any redeeming features other than being a much sharper + deadlier operator than K.

calzino, Friday, 5 January 2018 17:47 (eleven months ago) Permalink

Catkin notes how Khrushchev was disgusted by Mein Kampf after Stalin forced his inner circle to read it for clues into Hitler – he was repulsed by Hitler's immorality and bloodthirstiness.

morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 5 January 2018 17:55 (eleven months ago) Permalink

It always struck me as odd that Hitler so publicly declared his intentions of conquest + colonisation the east in MK, it's like the UK government when they talk to the UK press about the EU like they aren't reading this y'know! I bet Khrushchev's "disgust" was a complete bit of ham acting.

calzino, Friday, 5 January 2018 18:20 (eleven months ago) Permalink

It was also odd that Stalin had this naive belief in the integrity of the Molotov/Ribbentrop, despite being an un-trusting despot to the core. and all the rest!

calzino, Friday, 5 January 2018 18:35 (eleven months ago) Permalink


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