i mean i buy that at one point in time he might've been interested in democratization but c'mon gmafb
― Mordy, Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:19 (six years ago) link
What Mordy said.
― Le Bateau Ivre, Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:21 (six years ago) link
From that thread its more than "at one point".
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:23 (six years ago) link
buried the lede -
The purges were good and correct. Class traitors, careerists and double dealers have no business in a communist party. pic.twitter.com/1oC5Uteryy— Chris Aaron☭ (@EternalBolshie) August 19, 2017
― louie mensch (milo z), Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:27 (six years ago) link
that thread literally has the poster defend the great purge in which estimates suggest 600,000 people were killed
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:27 (six years ago) link
i think it's important to balance what he actually did with cherry picked dalliances in speeches/texts since actions spoke louder than words. xxp
― Mordy, Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:28 (six years ago) link
fucking quit it julio
― mark s, Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:28 (six years ago) link
i guess it's useful to know who the tankies among us are tho since that's important context when discussing politics on other threads
― Mordy, Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:29 (six years ago) link
neo-stalinism boggles my mind. read a fucking book for christ sake.
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:29 (six years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DOzYT4lcXuM
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:30 (six years ago) link
or like talk to someone who lived in the DDR or the Soviet Union or Yugoslavia, or Cuba. Jesus
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:30 (six years ago) link
we went through Cuba when El Jefe died.
― the Rain Man of nationalism. (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:31 (six years ago) link
oh i recall, shouldn't have mentioned it haha
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:32 (six years ago) link
The 20th century didn't invent propaganda, but it did expand the number of highly trained practitioners and the number of venues for delivering it by a couple orders of magnitude. Stalin had a small army of devoted propagandists to rationalize and justify his actions and transform them into shining virtues. There isn't an especially large market (or appetite) for that stuff today, but it still exists and for those who are susceptible, it still does its job.
― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:38 (six years ago) link
concur. I have tankie friends and I treat them like I treat Trump-voting family - smile, nod, change the subject, they're too stupid to be argued with
― she carries a torch. two torches, actually (Joan Crawford Loves Chachi), Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:41 (six years ago) link
my left wing pals tend to rip the pish out of tankies. It's usually the best way to deal with them other than just ignoring them.
― starving street dogs of punk rock (Odysseus), Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:45 (six years ago) link
Hey all I genuinely found some of that stuff in the thread interesting - sourced and commented on. Yes I saw all of the apologist crap below that but there was an account of stuff that you don't usually hear from that era. I haven't had the energy to engage with but I don't mean to cause offense, and obviously I am a communist sympathiser.
In the end its just a link though.
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:49 (six years ago) link
the 1936 constitution was infamous for bearing no resemblance whatever to the polity it attached to: i know you know this stuff when you haven't got yr adolescent edgelord hat on, trotsky wrote about it in books you lent me
historian zhukov is a well known reactionary nuisance
― mark s, Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:56 (six years ago) link
Have never met or interacted with a 'tankie' in my life, tbh.
― Wewlay Bewlay (Tom D.), Thursday, 24 August 2017 17:59 (six years ago) link
me neither, know a ton of trots mind you
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:01 (six years ago) link
One problem with relentless propaganda, as we all can verify from personal observation of politics, is that every action and every decision is spun as equally excellent in its effect and profoundly moral in its constitution. Or, from the opposition pov, all are equally horrifying and morally bankrupt. They all get put through the same mill. In a landscape so flattened and robbed of distinctive features, it is very easy to get lost.
― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:02 (six years ago) link
almost* prefer tankies to trots - somehow they seem more honest to me? * but not really
― Mordy, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:02 (six years ago) link
ugh, in the mid-90s i knew a whole gang of the pseudo-marxists in the RCP, which then became the libertarian take-churn machine spiked
(tho to be fair i don't know if they stayed with it all the way down the road)
(lol a french woman i know who had an affair w/one of them said he had the tiniest penis she had ever encountered)
― mark s, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:04 (six years ago) link
One problem with relentless propaganda, as we all can verify from personal observation of politics, is that every action and every decision is spun as equally excellent in its effect and profoundly moral in its constitution. Or, from the opposition pov, all are equally horrifying and morally bankrupt. They all get put through the same mill. In a landscape so flattened and robbed of distinctive features, it is very easy to get lost.― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, August 24, 2017 6:02 PM (forty-seven seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, August 24, 2017 6:02 PM (forty-seven seconds ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
OTM. It's "the single greatest decision, the best action, tremendously good" vs "Fake news. Sad!"
― Le Bateau Ivre, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:08 (six years ago) link
the first woman i ever loved is one of the most prominent trots in scotland (not tommy sheridan)
― -_- (jim in vancouver), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:12 (six years ago) link
i know you know this stuff when you haven't got yr adolescent edgelord hat on, trotsky wrote about it in books you lent me
OK, sure - certain other accounts (like that twitter thread) do pass me by, and that's a minefield (as er my revival clearly demonstrates), but I like to balance out from the way this stuff is written about by most ppl in the UK where the agenda behind it is to maintain the status quo in UK politics (Applebaum, Sebag Montefiore, people like that).
― xyzzzz__, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:13 (six years ago) link
(not tommy sheridan)
ron howard voice: it was t
― mark s, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:18 (six years ago) link
Love the ron howard voice meme
― jk rowling obituary thread (darraghmac), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:22 (six years ago) link
Stalin idk. He had a tough job and at least it's conclusively proved that leftist politics are nonsense, in the long run that was possibly worth it at thirty million dead or w/e?
Gonna say "too soon to call"
― jk rowling obituary thread (darraghmac), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:24 (six years ago) link
So what's new, everyone? Is Stalin cool now? Would he have won in a heads-up race against Trump? Just trying to stay on top of things here.
― Moodles, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:26 (six years ago) link
Stalin: one of history's great monsters, but is he the greatest?
― Moodles, Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:28 (six years ago) link
Nope. Well established fact that Jimmy Carter is history's greatest monster.
― A is for (Aimless), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:30 (six years ago) link
Discovery channel virtual mockup dictator tourney of death
― jk rowling obituary thread (darraghmac), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:31 (six years ago) link
I won't hear a word against Robespierre though, what that poor boy had to put up with!
― Wewlay Bewlay (Tom D.), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:33 (six years ago) link
That's it Tom, ppl won't look at things in context.
Billy Wright was the greatest leader we never had
― passé aggresif (darraghmac), Thursday, 24 August 2017 18:34 (six years ago) link
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/9/9e/Davidlowrendezvous.png/330px-Davidlowrendezvous.pnghttps://i.pinimg.com/736x/fe/2b/0c/fe2b0ce590a910f5a8fa90ed869220c2--political-cartoons-honeymoons.jpgInteresting (or maybe not!), contrast in depictions of Stalin. From Low's Alexender II type imposing strongman, that probably was probably more a symptom of UK Empire insecurity than Berryman's portrayal of him as the bonnie bridesmaid.
― calzino, Thursday, 24 August 2017 23:10 (six years ago) link
kotkin pt. 2 is out; only 1184 pages in hardcover
― mookieproof, Thursday, 2 November 2017 23:43 (six years ago) link
£15 for an e-book gtf! I might be forced to steal this I'm afraid.
― calzino, Thursday, 2 November 2017 23:46 (six years ago) link
thx for the tip - just ordered my copy. i'm really excited.
― Mordy, Thursday, 2 November 2017 23:49 (six years ago) link
This is good on Akhmatova and Stalin, and Sappho, and the act of preservation.
― xyzzzz__, Monday, 6 November 2017 22:15 (six years ago) link
thx for the heads up!
― Οὖτις, Monday, 6 November 2017 22:18 (six years ago) link
"Waiting for Hitler" is a great title
― Οὖτις, Monday, 6 November 2017 22:20 (six years ago) link
I just started Kotkin's vol 2 book earlier. I'm guessing he will later posit that he murdered both Gorky + Kirov.
― calzino, Monday, 6 November 2017 22:24 (six years ago) link
The description of Yezhov as the type of street urchin who would pour kerosene on a cat's tail and light it up for amusement had me chuckling. What a completely grotesque character, "the little blackberry" doesn't quite do him justice!
"Yezhov not only drank," recalled Zinaida Glikina, a friend of Yezhov's wife, Yevgeniya. "In addition, he deteriorated and lost the visage of not only a Communist but of a human being."
― calzino, Friday, 22 December 2017 16:52 (six years ago) link
he was under a lot of stress tbf
― difficult listening hour, Friday, 22 December 2017 17:58 (six years ago) link
aye, being top NKVD dog was pretty stressful, and your chances of ever quietly retiring weren't too hot.
― calzino, Friday, 22 December 2017 21:05 (six years ago) link
one of the many perplexing things about tankies how do they explain away the prominence of absolutely skin-crawlingingly awful people at the nexus of soviet power during his reign? I mean Beria almost makes Yezhov look like a nice wee guy
― khat person (jim in vancouver), Friday, 22 December 2017 21:09 (six years ago) link
I stuck Kotkin's bio in my Amazon list, hoping one of my friends will take the hint :(
― morning wood truancy (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 22 December 2017 21:19 (six years ago) link
presumably the same way they justify everything else: instructions for making omelets xp
― Mordy, Friday, 22 December 2017 21:19 (six years ago) link
insistence that good ends justify using evil means. this line is taken by people of every political persuasion. it's an equal opportunity rationalization.
― A is for (Aimless), Friday, 22 December 2017 21:55 (six years ago) link