I wish more photojournalism looked like this...

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Super Cub (Debito), Friday, 14 July 2006 01:21 (nineteen years ago)

"but she's not smiling" -- my editor

stet (stet), Friday, 14 July 2006 01:33 (nineteen years ago)

i like the photo - what's the journalism part? in other words, i think it can stand on its own as an image w/o being tied to some event.

timmy tannin (pompous), Friday, 14 July 2006 01:37 (nineteen years ago)

It's from today's New York Times. Caption reads, "A child suffering from shock was rushed to the hospital in Nahariya."

It's a great photo. How did the photographer get the blur effect but manage to capture her face clearly? The father and the child are both in motion. So if the photographer panned the camera with their walk, the father would also appear clearly. Why is the father blurred? Any ideas?

Super Cub (Debito), Friday, 14 July 2006 01:48 (nineteen years ago)

Maybe she was turning her head back toward her father when the picture was taken.

Super Cub (Debito), Friday, 14 July 2006 01:50 (nineteen years ago)

And if the guys face is in shadow how come her's is perfectly exposed while her arm isn't? Hmmm....I'm also wondering if it isn't a zoom effect rather than motion blur. But most of all, does anyone else have a problem with invasive photojournalism like this? The girl's in shock and being rushed to hospital so the photographer thinks it's a good idea to stick a camera in her face and the editor thinks it's good idea to publish the pic. I've seen much much worse but it still bothers me that money is being made from others' misfortune and people's dignity never seems to taken into consideration.
Or is it okay when they're foreigners?

dr lulu (dr lulu), Friday, 14 July 2006 02:07 (nineteen years ago)

Personally, I'd say you're off the money.

http://www.puntoini.net/wp-content/files/mgb_05_presse_capa06.jpg

Jimmy Mod: NOIZE BOARD GRIL COMPARISON ANALYST (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Friday, 14 July 2006 02:29 (nineteen years ago)

Was there not a lot of debate about whether that image was staged or not Jimmy?

Looking through pattern skies (papa november), Friday, 14 July 2006 02:36 (nineteen years ago)

There's a proof sheet of Capa's with almost identical shots next to this one. Definitely a set up.

dr lulu (dr lulu), Friday, 14 July 2006 02:37 (nineteen years ago)

You would be correct.

Also, this is pretty on point all the way around, specif. the last two paragraphs.

http://www.slate.com/id/2145277/

Jimmy Mod: NOIZE BOARD GRIL COMPARISON ANALYST (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Friday, 14 July 2006 02:45 (nineteen years ago)

True, plus it contains this quote.
An asshole who makes great art is an asshole who makes great art; but an asshole who makes lousy art is just an asshole.

dr lulu (dr lulu), Friday, 14 July 2006 02:57 (nineteen years ago)

How do similar shots on a contact sheet prove 'set up'? There aren't 'similar shots' with different individuals or different locations or anything of the sort. By the Spanish Civil War, Capa was using a Contax or Leica 35mm, so multiple frames in succession is hardly a questionable feat.

Anyway, the consensus of Capa's biographers and every photographic historian I've read is that Falling Soldier is real. The claim to the contrary rests on the word of an elderly writer fourty years after the fact, who gave conflicting statements about the circumstances.

An essay on the evidence compiled in Capa's favor - http://www.pbs.org/wnet/americanmasters/database/capa_r.html

milo z (mlp), Friday, 14 July 2006 03:21 (nineteen years ago)

given the horizontal curvature of the motion blur in the picture of the girl, i'd say the photographer twisted the camera as he took the shot, using her face as the axis. but if you look at the graphics in the background, they suggest a zoom. so, both. kind of gratuitous.

lf (lfam), Friday, 14 July 2006 03:45 (nineteen years ago)

You may well be right Milo and that link looks pretty persuasive (haven't got time to read the whole thing) but I still wonder about the fact that the second guy got shot on exactly the same spot. What happened to dead guy #1? Was the body removed before the next guy turned up? I don't mind admitting that I'm wrong but that's some coincidence.
Anyway, my point about invasive photojournalism....if the Capa pic is real how did the family feel about having a photo of their husband/father/brother/son getting shot in the head being front page news and about Capa eventually doing quite well out of it financially while they get zip, or were they just happy that the picture was helping the anti facist cause? And perhaps there is merit in photos such as that, but I'm not sure the world's a better place for the publication of photos like the one that started this thread.

dr lulu (dr lulu), Friday, 14 July 2006 04:11 (nineteen years ago)

i wish more photojournalism was cool &/or pretty.

i hardly know where to start here.

jed_ (jed), Friday, 14 July 2006 07:48 (nineteen years ago)

Was there not a lot of debate about whether that image was staged or not Jimmy?

Actually a family member claimed her nephew (?) died at the border so it could have happened. I dunno. Does it really matter? No. Not in my opinion.

Nathalie (stevie nixed), Friday, 14 July 2006 07:51 (nineteen years ago)

The problem I have with what you're arguing, dr lulu, is that whilst I agree that the media can't help but profit from unhappiness, the alternative is to pretend unhappiness doesn't exist?

More Tongue Feldman (noodle vague), Friday, 14 July 2006 07:56 (nineteen years ago)

http://i36.photobucket.com/albums/e33/rolocoaster/quispfucker.gif

This thread has been locked by a COCK FARMING ASSHOLE (Uri Frendimein), Friday, 14 July 2006 08:06 (nineteen years ago)

Well, it's like that shot of the napalm girl, you know the one.

In both situations, although very different, the girl was either just about to be, or was, being rescued. The photo takes 1 second to take. The result can be action spurring.

mark grout (mark grout), Friday, 14 July 2006 08:06 (nineteen years ago)

That photo's a bit too small and blurry to tell how it was taken.

Why has no one mentioned photoshop yet? It's not just for sticking George Bush's face on a cow's body.

mei (mei), Friday, 14 July 2006 16:15 (nineteen years ago)

I would bet everything I own that it's not Photoshop. After the last few years and controversies, no photojournalist would risk his entire career to get a nice blur effect.

milo z (mlp), Friday, 14 July 2006 16:26 (nineteen years ago)

Photographs like this show that the photoshop boogeyman is a bit of a misconception. You don't need photoshop to alter "reality." Photography has always been about manipulating images.

Super Cub (Debito), Friday, 14 July 2006 17:52 (nineteen years ago)

After the last few years and controversies, no photojournalist would risk his entire career to get a nice blur effect.

Being an editor-in-chief myself - in The Netherlands, I'm not sure what controversies you refere to - I know from experience that some photographers consider photoshop simply as an extra part of their toolkit, like setting the flash, filter, lense etc.
Now, if I'd learn that above photo has been indeed altered, it would be dissapointing, not to say disturbing (especially given it's theme). But I know that's just my view, which isn't shared by a lot of other people.

You don't need photoshop to alter "reality." Photography has always been about manipulating images.

I disagree. Photography hasn't always been about manipulation, photography in it's purest form is it's own manipulation. But it's a manipulation we've all learned to understand. Taking a black&white picture of something is manipulation in it's own, simply because we see in color, but a black&white photo isn't considered being a manipulated version of 'reality' (I'm having a hard time using that 'reality'-word, as I'm not quite sure what reality is, or if we'd agree on what 'reality' is). We also adepted to the fact that, with a photo, we can look at something in 'freeze-frame'. In 'reality', we can't do this, but that doesn't make photography manipulation. Photoshop does.

Gerard (Gerard), Friday, 14 July 2006 18:41 (nineteen years ago)

you asked for more pictures like that first one...
http://i.today.reuters.com/Pictures/galleries/Stories/632176283649218750/Previews/pixlog14070601.jpg

willem -- (willem), Friday, 14 July 2006 20:17 (nineteen years ago)

http://newsimg.bbc.co.uk/media/images/39027000/jpg/_39027407_abfab-bbc-203index.jpg

DAVE's secret to fortu-Oh look! Shiny! (dave225.3), Friday, 14 July 2006 21:32 (nineteen years ago)

To me this just looks like a quick snap as someone walked past. With the vagaries of ambient light, camera and person movement, the flash not pointing directly at the subject etc. random things like the girl's face being a bit brighter just happen sometimes.

However, photoshop (or equivalent) WILL have been used to alter this picture between camera and press/web.

If nothing else it's been re-sized and subsequently, if the person who re-sized it was doing their job properly, sharpened.

It's 337x260 pixels which is more square than the usual camera native aspect ratio, so I think it's been cropped to help emphasise the subject. [337x260 is about 80k pixels which is too small to even come directly out of a camera phone.]

It looks over-saturated and very contrasty so either it's come out of a really cheap camera (which will emphasise those to make the picture look subjectively better) or those properties have been tweaked.

It would also be easy to burn in the face of the girl (or is it dodge, I can never remember) to make it clearer (I'm not say that has been done, just that it might easily have been).

-----

All of that could just be considered as prepping it for viewing, nothing untoward.

mei (mei), Friday, 14 July 2006 21:36 (nineteen years ago)

I'm not sure what controversies you refere to - I know from experience that some photographers consider photoshop simply as an extra part of their toolkit, like setting the flash, filter, lense etc.
There have been several photographers for US papers and magazines in the last few years that have lost their jobs (and can't get hired elsewhere) because they Photoshopped images. Their actions were more extreme - combining multiple images was one I remember, but in a similar vein. Actually, those cases made more sense - Photoshop was the only way they thought they could get THE image they wanted or their agency needed, whereas this is a blur that adds some artistry to the image but doesn't make it any better as a piece of photojournalism.

Photoshop is a legitimate tool for the most part, and used in the ways of old darkroom techniques (dodging/burning/cropping/color correcting) I doubt anyone would have a problem. When you get into heavy alteration of the scene, journalistic ethics wouldn't allow it, just as they wouldn't accept airbrushing 50 years ago.

milo z (mlp), Friday, 14 July 2006 21:37 (nineteen years ago)

"After the last few years and controversies, no photojournalist would risk his entire career to get a nice blur effect."

Such as? I've not heard of any. Can you be specific.

I agree with you Gerard about there being no objective reality, but this
"But it's a manipulation we've all learned to understand." is over-optimistic, you understand but a lot of people don't.

mei (mei), Friday, 14 July 2006 21:41 (nineteen years ago)

I don't keep back issues of Photo District News for names and dates, but I know that one was an LA Times photographer who got bounced for combining two digital photographs into one.

If you check PJ guidelines (and also PJ contest guidelines - the White House Press Association awards, etc.), you'll find that's pretty much standard. You can Photoshop for dust removal, color correction, dodging/burning - but not additions, subtractions or major alterations.

milo z (mlp), Friday, 14 July 2006 21:50 (nineteen years ago)

I wholeheartidly agree, Milo Z. Combining two pictures into one is a big no-no, journalism-wise. It then represents the photographers unique view on a matter, something she/he couldn't catch on camera in one shot. That's not journalism, that's art (or at least it could be art). But if above photographer (and by all means, someone tell me who that was, 'cause it's a beautiful photo) 'blurred' the picture more then it was originally, I don't see a problem with that. Blurring in this photo has a significant effect on how we view it, but it doesn't distract from nor 'manipulate' it's original image. It leads the eye even more to the young girl being held by her father/rescue worker (?), which is the essence of the photo: youth, panic, innocence.

Gerard (Gerard), Friday, 14 July 2006 21:53 (nineteen years ago)

Jeff LeVine (Jeff LeVine), Friday, 14 July 2006 21:56 (nineteen years ago)

@Mei, I was deliberately being very careful picking an example like black&white photography (if I intended pun I could be saying now that my example of black&white photography isn't "black and white" ;-) ). The understanding of manipulation is differential, a thin line for sure, and a very personal one.
"You understand but a lot of people don't," is very true. But it's one of the core principles of a journalist - whether it be written or photographic journalism - to take upon you the task of being as 'true' as possible (please take note I used the word 'true' instead of 'objective'). There's a lot of betrayal or 'untruthfullness' in journalism, which makes "a lot of people"'s understanding about what's at hand very difficult if not impossible. But at the end of the day, that's what I'm striving for, to make a newspaper - it's words and it's photo's - as 'truely' understandable as possible.

Gerard (Gerard), Friday, 14 July 2006 22:04 (nineteen years ago)

"PJ guidelines" what are these? Are they online?


"...to take upon you the task of being as 'true' as possible..."

The most truthful photos can be the ones that have been altered/manipulated a lot though. Just pointing a camera at something and pressing the button will just show you what it looked like to a camera. If you're a good photographer you should be able to show what a human there might have experienced.

mei (mei), Tuesday, 18 July 2006 11:53 (nineteen years ago)

Ask a university nearby (I received a huge fuck-off packet on ethics when I took an intro to journalism course, PJ should be relatively similar), or at a newspaper/magazine. They should all have some kind of standards in writing.

Even if I agreed with your premise - heavily manipulating the 'reality' of the event with new images or blurring is hardly necessary in conveying 'truth' - "Show[ing] you what it looked like to a camera" is pretty much the idea behind 99% of photojournalism. If you classify someone like Cartier-Bresson or Eugene Richards or Sebastiao Salgado as a photojournalist rather than simply a photographer or a documentarian, the field gets wider - but in no case can I think of a situation where photojournalists at large, PJ orgs, contests, newspaper or magazines would consider significant alterations to be acceptable.

If you want to alter the scene to present a greater 'truth,' excellent - but it ain't photojournalism. You can't be Hunter S. Thompson on the crime beat at your local paper, either.

milo z (mlp), Tuesday, 18 July 2006 17:23 (nineteen years ago)

two weeks pass...
it happened..

ihttp://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/20122005/856456/LBN20_wa(1).jpg

reuters owns up to a rogue photog's photoshop foolery. funny thing is that you can see the repeating pattern quite easily.

oh, wrinklepaws! (Wrinklepaws), Sunday, 6 August 2006 22:49 (nineteen years ago)

err, photo here: http://www.ynetnews.com/PicServer2/20122005/856456/LBN20_wa(1).jpg
story here: http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3286966,00.html

oh, wrinklepaws! (Wrinklepaws), Sunday, 6 August 2006 22:51 (nineteen years ago)

lollergasam @ poor PS

Jimmy Mod: THE HANDLESS ORGANIST (The Famous Jimmy Mod), Sunday, 6 August 2006 22:56 (nineteen years ago)

PICTURE KILL

s1ocki (slutsky), Sunday, 6 August 2006 23:08 (nineteen years ago)

A North Carolina paper just fired a guy for altering the background of a firefighter photo, too.

milo z (mlp), Monday, 7 August 2006 00:41 (nineteen years ago)

Regarding original image and its blurryness vs nonblurryness: maybe the variable known as "luck" entered into it? I've always guessed that the reason photographers seem to click loads of times in nearly equal situations is to have a good chance of hitting the tail of the statistical distribution?

The Vintner's Lipogram (OleM), Monday, 7 August 2006 00:54 (nineteen years ago)

They had something about this on Newsnight last night and an interview with the photographer, who sounded like an idiot.

mei (mei), Thursday, 10 August 2006 15:29 (nineteen years ago)


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