Halliburton convoy ambush video

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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YQBLsoOngA0

Holy fucking shit.

It's the lazy and immoral way to become super hip. (Austin, Still), Friday, 29 September 2006 10:27 (nineteen years ago)

Shown on BBC News last night. Halliburton fired the SURVIVING drivers apparently. There was also some contention that rather than 'abandoning' their team-mates the ones that drove on were simply trying to get out of the firing line.

Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 29 September 2006 10:32 (nineteen years ago)

For those of us without sound what's the story?

Kv_nol (Kv_nol), Friday, 29 September 2006 11:06 (nineteen years ago)

video is roughly a year old. taken by a guy contacted by Halliburton to drive one of several trucks as part of a convoy escoted by military. he drives with one hand and films the journey with the other. the convoy take a wrong turn as the contractors, for some reason, have not been supplied with maps. they're in a v hostile neighbourhood obv. when people start shooting at them. the driver leading the convoy is shot causing his truck to overturn (don't think we see this but it's his body the locals are stripping, beating and burning as picked up by the overhead drone). the guy with the camera has his truck rendered immobile so it looks like he's about to get killed too but army helicopters come to the rescue in the nick of time. i actually have no idea what the trucks actually contain as it is.

Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 29 September 2006 11:15 (nineteen years ago)

Cheers Konal. Fucking terrible to watch.

Kv_nol (Kv_nol), Friday, 29 September 2006 11:17 (nineteen years ago)

LEVEL 6

mission: drive the truck
weapons: N/A
map: N/A
tactics/support options: N/A

perfect score necessary to continue play

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 29 September 2006 11:30 (nineteen years ago)

the escort legs it as soon as the firing starts! unbelievable

The Real DG (D to thee G), Friday, 29 September 2006 11:31 (nineteen years ago)

i like the comment on youtube tho: "cos he was only getting paid 1/10 of what the camera driver as getting"

Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 29 September 2006 11:38 (nineteen years ago)

WTF @:
1/the army national guard escort just abandons them.
2/he has to wait 40m for the army helicopters to show up.
3/he is fired for being injured on the job.

Unbelievable incompetence.

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 29 September 2006 11:43 (nineteen years ago)

"The US Military is not Big Corporates babysitter."

http://img212.imageshack.us/img212/9425/orlybabyvl0dd5.gif

The Real DG (D to thee G), Friday, 29 September 2006 11:45 (nineteen years ago)

This being reported on anywhere in particular?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 29 September 2006 11:48 (nineteen years ago)

CNN did a segment on it last night on Anderson Cooper's show.

The Bearnaise-Stain Bears (Rock Hardy), Friday, 29 September 2006 11:55 (nineteen years ago)

channel 4 news screened it last night too. really upsetting stuff.

i am not a nugget (stevie), Friday, 29 September 2006 12:01 (nineteen years ago)

this is a labor organizing issue, essentially -

1) expectation of adequate safety provisioning on the job
2) job security

but since american journalists have been trained for years to be unable to see labor issues in all the place they are embedded in the world around us, all they're left with is that like, uh, i guess the army should find the results of that investigation, back to you, faceless douchbag

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 29 September 2006 12:14 (nineteen years ago)

3) Prosecuting a war with mercenaries rather than troops.

It's the lazy and immoral way to become super hip. (Austin, Still), Friday, 29 September 2006 12:35 (nineteen years ago)

good old DWP don't like youtube, so i'll have to wait til i get home.

not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Friday, 29 September 2006 12:59 (nineteen years ago)

you can watch it here too:http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/help/3681938.stm

Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:00 (nineteen years ago)

"A problem has occurred loading the BBC News Player
great!

ah well leaving in 28 minutes.

not-goodwin (not-goodwin), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:03 (nineteen years ago)

this was on abc's evening news on wednesday. unbelievable.

the contractors, for some reason, have not been supplied with maps.

iirc, during the abc segment it was said that this wasn't a one-off mistake - the policy is not to supply maps to contractors.

lauren (laurenp), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:05 (nineteen years ago)

To be fair, that was, as they said over the radio, a kill zone, and that hummvee could have been taken out with one RPG.

wostyntje (wostyntje), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:11 (nineteen years ago)

Austin, 3) is still a labor issue, though isn't it? i.e. bringing in temps with no benefits and inflated hourly rates to do the same jobs that staffers could be doing

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:17 (nineteen years ago)

although to be fair armies have been doing that for centuries, especially for colonial geostrategic power-balance wars like this one - i'm not sure what would be gained by putting even MORE shopkeepers and and desperate high-schoolers in harm's way (besides $, obviously, as with all situations where temps are used instead of staffers for far longer than was ever originally envisioned)

Euai Kapaui (tracerhand), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:24 (nineteen years ago)

Comments (edited for roffles)

Post a new comment
tweakedcartman (12 hours ago)
Why is this dumbass so surprised he got attacked?

dopemcee (10 hours ago)
cuz he's a bitch?

RFI (7 hours ago)
What a shitty neighborhood.

ceeIoc (7 hours ago)
thats the HOOOOOOD right there

slimeball6969 (6 hours ago)
home boy was sporting the wrong colors

bfayer (6 hours ago)
This shit reminds me of the movie red dawn where those kids resist a cuban invasion.

olllj (1 hour ago)
OMG this video inteed contains images and language!

kidcodea (30 minutes ago)
GO IRAQ!

envane (21 minutes ago)
Beautiful. Allah bless the freedom fighters. :)

mr. brojangles (sanskrit), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:25 (nineteen years ago)

PROUD TO BE AN AMERICAN

mr. brojangles (sanskrit), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:25 (nineteen years ago)

The comments on youtube clip pages, generally, suck ass and seem to be written by complete morons.

The humvee could indeed have been taken out by an rpg, but it was supposed to be escorting/protecting the trucks. The humvee in the clip appears to be armed withsomething at least the size of a 50 caliber, mounted in a turret on the top. The trucks were evidently unarmed!

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:30 (nineteen years ago)

yeah i don't understand the point of assigning an escort that's not going to do any escorting either...is this some new doctine? the generals getting fed up of being criticised for killing iraqis so they're sulking and won't shoot anyone at all now? see how they like them apples?

The Real DG (D to thee G), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:35 (nineteen years ago)

youtube comments generally are the most depressing thing i've seen on the internet in recent times.

Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:41 (nineteen years ago)

tho this is partly cos i spend much of my youtube time watching football clips from different parts of Europe so you get a lot of ugly racist shit in addition to the kind of moronic crap above

Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:42 (nineteen years ago)

>The humvee in the clip appears to be armed withsomething at least the size of a 50 caliber, mounted in a turret on the top

Yeah, but since there was only one humvee it could have put down suppresive fire on one side of the road at a time only, leaving the other side exposed. Plus they were in a area with lots of trees for freedom fighter to hide in.

wostyntje (wostyntje), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:42 (nineteen years ago)

So, yeah, why actually try & defend your convoy when you can make a break for it and leave dudes high & dry?

David R. (popshots75`), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:47 (nineteen years ago)

You go be an hero then.

wostyntje (wostyntje), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:52 (nineteen years ago)

It's not a matter of "being a hero", it's a matter of basically doing your bloody job! The soldiers in the humvee are there to escort the convoy, ie protect it from attack. It gets attacked, and the humvee just drives away, leaving 3 drivers to be shot - 2 killed and one injured. Some effective escort, that!

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 29 September 2006 13:56 (nineteen years ago)

What I find worst of all is the fact that these guys were sent out with such lame directions that they get lost. In an era with drones in the sky and gps, they're sending these convoys out on the cheap without weapons, without anybody riding shotgun and without enough humvees. It's indicative of the ineptitude and the pollyannishly naive thinking that Rumsfeld has steadfastly espoused. You'd think a little light reading in WWII convoy protection might help someone figure out some innovative ways to improve the situation, but it looks like Halliburton preferes to make its profits and Rummy prefers to continue to defend his misguided policies rather than be innovative enough to actually win.

M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:05 (nineteen years ago)

what's the conversation in clerks about the construction workers on the death star?

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:20 (nineteen years ago)

You'd think a little light reading in WWII convoy protection

or watching BLACK HAWK DOWN, or reading BLACK HAWK DOWN, or remembering anything from the news about 12 years ago about what happens when you DRIVE TRUCKS WITH BAD DIRECTIONS THROUGH MILITANT ISLAMIC NEIGHBORHOODS

and whoever pointed out that the escort ditched because yeah, regular army gets about 10% of what the truckers are getting - completely correct and you'd have to be a complete fucking idiot to stick around there and try to defend an overturned truck in that situation.

I really hope rumsfeld gets raped by satan for the rest of eternity.

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:26 (nineteen years ago)

youtube comments generally are the most depressing thing i've seen on the internet in recent times.

-- Konal Doddz

Utterly OTM, and I don't even watch football.

dang man listen to you all cock of the walk! (fandango), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:28 (nineteen years ago)

doing your bloody job!

escort is not special insertion operations to defend a stupid fucking truck out in the open with no support for an indeterminate period of time against vastly superior numbers. Better 2 overpaid truckers than a whole platoon on top.

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:30 (nineteen years ago)

Fair enough, but abandoning the drivers of the disabled vehicles?

Pashmina (Pashmina), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:31 (nineteen years ago)

what's the conversation in clerks about the construction workers on the death star?

but those dumbasses didn't know they all be clones

Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:33 (nineteen years ago)

I honestly can't summon up jack shit sympathy for private contractors who go over there any more. The troops are being completely exploited, with stop-loss and shitty raises and tour after tour after tour after tour until they come home in a coma and can't fight any more. People who up and decide that they want to go profit off this miserable and disgusting situation, taking home six figures tax free for 6-9 months of menial bullshit a trained monkey could do, they can all go to hell. I think every one of my friends and colleagues has considered it at some point, how can you ignore those paychecks - but rational decision making doesn't put you in that truck. Greed puts you in that truck. Unadulterated stupid greed.

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:36 (nineteen years ago)

I suspect perhaps some of the enlistees in those escort cars may have unspoken feelings similar to that rant. It's a tingle in my biceps.

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:38 (nineteen years ago)

good points well made

Konal Doddz (blueski), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:40 (nineteen years ago)

I dunno tom, if yr a working class dude, trucker, whatever, with a chance to get out from under a little bit, and you believe all the stuff about helping the troops, helping the war effort, rebuilding... I don't think it's ALL greed.

geoff (gcannon), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:45 (nineteen years ago)

+ I've read lotsa stuff about the unbelievably callous attitude KBR etc take toward these guys once they show up, like asking for maps, or armor, or better escorts, gets you a "get out the kitchen" speech at best, usually a pink slip.

geoff (gcannon), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:48 (nineteen years ago)

The whole argument about what the government does better vs. what private enterprise does better needs to be informed by our experiences in Iraq. The 'privatization' of so many services is really just a way for the government to avoid the draft by enticing people over to Iraq with money to do various non-combat duties. If they had a good enough case to present to the American people, they could get away with a draft but they don't, so they're cowardly burdening future generations of Americans with further debt and the ultimate cruelty of it all is that it just doesn't work. I think it's time to throw back in the faces of these 'conservatives', the intemperate accusation of their Bircher brethren, 'None dare call it treason."

M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:50 (nineteen years ago)

I dunno tom, if yr a working class dude, trucker, whatever, with a chance to get out from under a little bit, and you believe all the stuff about helping the troops, helping the war effort, rebuilding... I don't think it's ALL greed.

-- geoff, September 29th, 2006 11:45 AM. (gcannon) (link)

+ I've read lotsa stuff about the unbelievably callous attitude KBR etc take toward these guys once they show up, like asking for maps, or armor, or better escorts, gets you a "get out the kitchen" speech at best, usually a pink slip.

-- geoff, September 29th, 2006 11:48 AM. (gcannon) (link)

so a literate person, who can think for themselves, wouldn't be in that situation. Recall that I also used the word stupid.

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:56 (nineteen years ago)

I got this in my e-mail a while ago:

Careers - Meet Blackwater USA - 9/13 Springfield, VA

==============================
Newsletter Sponsor
==============================

Meet the Blackwater USA recruiting team:

September 13, 2006
Time: 11:00-4:00pm
Place: Holiday Inn Express
Address: 6401 Brandon Ave.
Springfield, VA 22150

Blackwater was founded in 1997 from a clear vision developed from an understanding of the need for innovative, flexible training and operational solutions to support security and peace, and freedom and democracy everywhere. Its founder is a former U. S. Navy SEAL. He created Blackwater on the belief that both the military and law enforcement establishments would require additional capacity to train fully our brave men and women in and out of uniform to the standards required to keep our country secure.

Blackwater is are not simply a 'private security company.'

Blackwater is a professional military, law enforcement, security, peacekeeping, and stability operations firm who provides turnkey solutions.

Blackwater assists with the development of national and global security policies and military transformation plans.

Blackwater can train, equip and deploy public safety and military professionals, build live-fire indoor/outdoor ranges, MOUT facilities and shoot houses, create ground and aviation operations and logistics support packages, develop and execute canine solutions for patrol and explosive detection, and can design and build facilities both domestically and in austere environments abroad.

Blackwater is seeking:

-- Protective Security Specialists (PSS)
-- PSS/Designated Defensive Marksmen (DDM)
-- Explosive Detection Dog (EDD)/Handlers
-- Administrative and Logistics Security Specialists (ALSS)
-- Intelligence Analysts (IA)
-- Armorers
-- Maintenance Positions
-- Medical Officers
-- Physician Assistants
-- PSS/Emergency Medical Technicians (EMTI)

Learn more about Blackwater USA at http://www.blackwaterusa.com/

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:58 (nineteen years ago)

You couldn't pay me enough, son.

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 14:59 (nineteen years ago)

Its founder is a former U. S. Navy SEAL.

Then theoretically he should know better. That or he's confused all those training missions I used to see those guys do south of Coronado with Iraq.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:01 (nineteen years ago)

Oh he's not confused. He knows exactly where money is printed and what color it is.

"Based on limited information, we have drawn up a rough order of magnitude as to what
the cost would be to provide a turnkey solution to train 2,000 new Border Patrol Agents at
Blackwater. That solution would cost approximately $40,000.00 per person for the 18-week
course. That is a fully burdened number that accounts for overhead, general and administrative
expenses, and is based on what it costs for tactical driving, firearms, and classroom training at
our facility. Further, we believe it would take us approximately one year to train all 2,000
agents. "

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:04 (nineteen years ago)

Unbeknownst to the FBI, state & local PDs, game hunters and ROTC students all over the whole entire goddamned country, the Federal Government, to include the motherfucking US NAVY, cannot afford to operate their own firing ranges.

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:06 (nineteen years ago)

I hate my job.

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:06 (nineteen years ago)

Don't blame you. Very glad my dad is out and long gone.

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:37 (nineteen years ago)

I can't believe that the truckers didn't pack a handgun or anything. Tombot? Why

Also: http://www.flickr.com/photos/defensorfortis/sets/72157594152852804/

ricedtricked out usa tacticals

roc u like a § (ex machina), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:44 (nineteen years ago)

Actually, TOMBOT:

1. Military escort had fucked-up maps.

2. Truckers had no maps, no GPS, no weapons, no fucking clue.
They were totally dependent upon the escort.
So, YES, the escort WAS the fucking baby-sitter, seeing-eye dog and everything else.

3. If the military is not doing part of the military's job here, then they shouldn't be used for private corporate interests, but that's not the case, is it? They ARE doing their job. The truckers get paid a lot of money because their job is important. By fucking up, the escorts obviously cost someone some money.

3. Escorts, after realizing their fuck-up, decided to continue on, anyway.

4. So, escorts led them into an ambush and took off. If it was a seeing-eye dog, they would be retired, not given medals.

IPSISSIMUS (Uri Frendimein), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:54 (nineteen years ago)

Oh great

M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 29 September 2006 15:57 (nineteen years ago)

Oh okay Spockies I wish eternal satan rape on you too. Better?

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:04 (nineteen years ago)

That book's going to be an interesting read (in the Chinese proverbial sense). Anyway, who will write Sideshow: Part Deux?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:04 (nineteen years ago)

Haha, tommy's wrong and can't play along.

IPSISSIMUS (Uri Frendimein), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:07 (nineteen years ago)

kissinger, moon landings, quagmire, woodward. waht year is it?

lk (lawrence kansas), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:08 (nineteen years ago)

Don't know, lk, but have you heard of this band, Roxy Music?

M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:12 (nineteen years ago)

Sorry no, with high oil prices I can't afford to drive to my local record store :-/

lk (lawrence kansas), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:17 (nineteen years ago)

I suspect perhaps some of the enlistees in those escort cars may have unspoken feelings similar to that rant. It's a tingle in my biceps.

hey Tom, did you see The War Tapes", where they actually gave DV cameras to the Guard guys going over there? Apparently, the enlisted guys on the flick don't hold back on the commentary on the contractors...

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:17 (nineteen years ago)

I just got an email from a friend to a bunch of us disgruntled vets with that Kissinger story and the bold proclamation "Tom's boy still in politics"

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:18 (nineteen years ago)

they would be retired, not given medals.

hahaha, since when in the last 5 years have we NOT rewarded colossal fuck-ups with big shiney metals?

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:21 (nineteen years ago)

Remember the four Blackwater guys who were killed in Fallujah which sparked off the siege and the eventual battle? The four families are suing Blackwater for wrongful death. Details are leaking out...

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:21 (nineteen years ago)

Brownie didn't get one!

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:22 (nineteen years ago)

Some choice bits...

JUAN GONZALEZ: Jeremy, in your article, you talk about some of the contracts that you were able to get copies of, where actually Blackwater was subcontracting to others, but in their contract they deleted certain provisions of the protections of these men, and the men actually complained about it, the superiors complained about it. Can you talk about that a little bit?

JEREMY SCAHILL: Right. And this is something that I actually think Marc Miles would be very good on, but just in short, in studying this case, you sort of look at the pyramid scheme that exists in these war zones, where Blackwater is paying these guys $600. At the top, the federal government could be getting billed as much as like $2,000 -- $1,500 to $2,000 for these men.

JUAN GONZALEZ: Per day.

JEREMY SCAHILL: Per day. But they were getting paid -- like Scott Helvenston was getting paid $600 a day. Blackwater, in turn, was billing a Kuwaiti company more than $800 for Scott Helvenston’s services, and then that Kuwaiti company, in turn, billed a Cypriot company called E.S.S., which was the company that provides catering services to military operations, basically the U.S. military bases. And then the reports are that E.S.S. had a contract with Halliburton -- with K.B.R., the subsidiary of Halliburton. K.B.R. has denied any relationship to this and won't talk about it anymore. But it just shows sort of the breakdown. It goes through multiple hands, at least three or four layers per contract.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:22 (nineteen years ago)

dammit, where's that paul revere/nude spock graphic?

xpost

Brownie didn't get one!

not yet!

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:23 (nineteen years ago)

JUAN GONZALEZ: Now, even in the training period at Blackwater, he began to find problems in terms of the quality of the training that was going on?

KATY HELVENSTON: Well, apparently he had the audacity to suggest that maybe there was a better way of running these certain missions, in that the people who were subcontracting out with Blackwater would actually survive the mission. And this Justin McQuown was the instructor there at Moyock, and he was outraged that Scott had the audacity to even suggest that there was a better way.

AMY GOODMAN: Moyock in North Carolina, where Blackwater is based.

KATY HELVENSTON: Yes. And so, Scotty got over to the Middle East, and he was in Kuwait City for about a week, and then he was sent up to Baghdad, and all of a sudden, this same guy, Justin McQuown is Scott's boss. And he came up to Scott’s room a couple days before Scott was murdered and got into an altercation, and he took Scott's gun away from him. He had two men with him that held Scotty down. He didn't want to give up his gun. He said, you know, “I have to have my gun.” And they took that away from him. And that night he was ordered to change teams and go into Fallujah.

AMY GOODMAN: What did he think he was going to be doing?

KATY HELVENSTON: He was told that he was going to be security for the ambassador, Paul Bremer. And the people he had been with in Kuwait City, all of a sudden he was no longer working in that team. He was taken out of that team and put in with men that were wonderful, good people, but he had never met them, he had never worked with them.

JUAN GONZALEZ: And how unusual is it to take someone out of their team and assign them to another team and send them out on a mission?

KATY HELVENSTON: I was told that it’s unheard of.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:25 (nineteen years ago)

U.S. Rep. Chris Van Hollen held up a copy of Blackwater's contract, which said Blackwater was ultimately working for the Army's main contractor in Iraq, Kellogg Brown & Root, with two companies in between.

The Army and Kellogg Brown & Root denied in a letter that Blackwater had done any work for them.

"Clearly no one is minding the store, right from the top, no one is holding [Kellogg Brown & Root] responsible or any of its subcontractors," Van Hollen, a Maryland Democrat, said afterward. "It's mind-boggling the degree of incompetence."

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:26 (nineteen years ago)

One more...

JUAN GONZALEZ: I’d like to ask Marc Miles, on the day then that these four Blackwater employees are killed, they're sent into Fallujah. You raised a whole issue of the contract that required a risk assessment on their part and an overview of the mission that they were involved in. What happened that day, as far as you have been able to understand and as your lawsuit alleges?

MARC MILES: Well, what we're going to prove at trial is that because Blackwater essentially cut corners and because of this personal animosity that Justin McQuown had with Scott Helvenston, they weren't allowed to gather intelligence and do the pre-tip inspection and all of the things that they were told that they would be allowed to do and that is actually represented in the contracts for the mission that they were doing work under.

And so, what happened that particular day from the evidence that I’ve accumulated is that they were basically told to escort three flatbed trucks, which I understand were going to pick up some kitchen equipment, far different from what Scott Helvenston had understood, that he would be guarding an ambassador. Instead, kitchen equipment, actually empty trucks that were going to get kitchen equipment.

So they were to escort these two E.S.S. trucks from a city of Taji to an army base, which is on the west side of Fallujah. And so, what happened is they set out on their mission, but because they didn't have G.P.S., because they didn't have maps of the area, because they weren’t able to do a pre-trip inspection of the route, they didn't necessarily know where they were going, so they essentially got lost. And, in fact, the first day that they set out, they were so lost and it was getting late that they ended up staying at an army base on the east side of Fallujah.

AMY GOODMAN: Marc, I just want to interrupt for one second. You said they had no map?

MARC MILES: That's correct. In fact, from what I understand, and folks that we have talked to, they had asked for a map shortly before going out on their mission, and basically the individual who was in charge of handing out the maps said, “It's too late for a map now,” and sent them on their way. And that's the type of conduct at Blackwater that we're dealing with. They got so lost that first day that they had to spend the night in a different camp, somewhere that they weren’t even intending on going. And at that point, they were on the east side of Fallujah.

Now, they were ultimately to get to the other side of Fallujah. Unfortunately, what they didn't know was that there was a much safer route that took them around the north side of Fallujah. They could have easily traveled this route in a single day, and it would have been extremely less dangerous. But because they didn't have a map, they didn't have G.P.S., and, in fact, funny story, I think they had G.P.S. units, but Blackwater didn't provide them with the maps to go in the G.P.S. units for the Middle East. So, essentially, they had G.P.S. units for the United States, which doesn't do a lot of good over there. Anyway, there was a safer route that they could take north of the city that would take them about three hours to get to the other side. But instead, they missed that turnoff, and they ended up driving straight through the center of Fallujah, and it was as they got through the middle of town that they got stuck in traffic, that they were ultimately ambushed.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:26 (nineteen years ago)

And this...

One point that I want to make, though, that I think is important is Katy Helvenston talks about the way that Erik Prince and others from Blackwater have dealt with these families. Erik Prince comes from a major powerful Republican family in Michigan. His family is linked in with Richard DeVos, the Amway founder who basically funded the Republican revolution of the 1990s. Erik Prince, himself, for this piece -- I worked with the Center for Public Integrity, and we put together a profile of Erik Prince's family's political contributions. Erik Prince and his late wife gave $275,000 since 1989 to various political candidates, not a single penny ever to a Democrat. Now, that’s not unusual for, you know, a lifelong Republican to give that kind of money. It is unusual, though, for the head of a company to cast its lot entirely with one party, and it has paid off, because Blackwater literally is making a killing right now, to the point where Gary Jackson, the president of Blackwater, after Bush won the election in 2004, sends out an email to Blackwater's mailing list that says, “Bush wins, four more years!! Hooyah!!”

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:29 (nineteen years ago)

i don't know what people complain about, the free market always works better and cheaper than more big government on our backs

xpost:

His family is linked in with Richard DeVos, the Amway founder who basically funded the Republican revolution of the 1990s.

this douche is running for michigan governor, isn't he

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:30 (nineteen years ago)

Van Hollen, a Maryland Democrat, is so so so so so much more polite than I could ever hope to be

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:30 (nineteen years ago)

How come cliaiming incompetence doesn't work for average citizens when they get in trouble?

IPSISSIMUS (Uri Frendimein), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:30 (nineteen years ago)

this douche is running for michigan governor, isn't he

His son is.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:34 (nineteen years ago)

How come cliaiming incompetence doesn't work for average citizens when they get in trouble?

b/c we live in an authoritarian society, where personality responsibility is required of us, but not our leaders, who should be always absolved of any guilt(e.g. Ken Lay's funeral) and not to be question. Daddy only beats us b/c he loves us.

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:35 (nineteen years ago)

Re: the whole "doing their job" debate, I kind of get the feeling the escort here has done exactly its job, as it's directed to do it: i.e., guide convoy, maybe protect convoy from light fire, but in the event of anything serious, cut losses and get out. I mean, soldiers don't get tasked with protecting something at all costs -- they get tasked with protecting it exactly as far as it's in someone's interest to do so, which in this case seems to be "escorting" but not "rescuing" or "fighting for."

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:35 (nineteen years ago)

DeVos is polling behind Granholm, but it's still pretty close.

Elvis Telecom (Chris Barrus), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:37 (nineteen years ago)

Re: the whole "doing their job" debate, I kind of get the feeling the escort here has done exactly its job, as it's directed to do it: i.e., guide convoy, maybe protect convoy from light fire, but in the event of anything serious, cut losses and get out.

Then, you're missing the point that they MISGUIDED the convoy, realized their fuck-up and continued on, anyway, despite realizing the inherent risks of this action. And when those risks became reality, they split.

IPSISSIMUS (Uri Frendimein), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:48 (nineteen years ago)

Please re-read what I just wrote: my point was that splitting "when those risks became reality" may well have been their job exactly.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:55 (nineteen years ago)

Please re-read what I just wrote: my point was that they fucked up their job exactly.

IPSISSIMUS (Uri Frendimein), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:56 (nineteen years ago)

Oh wow, I only just now got why everyone think you're a dipshit!

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:57 (nineteen years ago)

just now?! I've been thinking you were a dipshit for quite some time already. They realized they made a mistake and continued on, anyway. See?

IPSISSIMUS (Uri Frendimein), Friday, 29 September 2006 16:59 (nineteen years ago)

Just out of curiosity, what precisely does that have to do with my comment, which you quoted, about how an escort probably has a point of danger at which they're instructed to cut and run? What connection would their navigation mistake have to do with anything I said?

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:00 (nineteen years ago)

nabisco what the hell. do you have to feed every troll?

TOMBOT (TOMBOT), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:02 (nineteen years ago)

Ha, sorry Tom, I didn't really understand what everyone's problem with him was till just now! I should quit before it gets weird.

nabisco (nabisco), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:03 (nineteen years ago)

nabisco, you're NOT REALIZING something.

The fuck-up here is not cutting and running.

The fuck-up was proceding aimlessly once they realized their maps were fucked up. The cut and run was just icing on the cake.

IPSISSIMUS (Uri Frendimein), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:05 (nineteen years ago)

Nabisco, that may be their job, but if it is, it means the whole thing's fucked up, 'cause it's essentially saying that (a) we don't have enough troops to protect our supply convoys or (b) we can't bother to figure out how to otherwise protect them, or (c) we're willing to relativise the impact the insurgent attacks are really having and thus, insurgents are encouraged to take potshots at us, increasing their sense of self-worth and diminishing their sense of impotence since we cannot (or won't) impose either by superior force or tactics our will upon Iraqis who choose to resort to violence against us. It's exactly how to 'lose'.

(Shit, he knows how to use {b}.)

M. White (Miguelito), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:10 (nineteen years ago)

nabisco what the hell. do you have to feed every troll?


ChronoTrigger!

roc u like a § (ex machina), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:11 (nineteen years ago)

hahah

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:12 (nineteen years ago)

There seems to be no more misunderstanding as to what my point was, and i no longer have anything to say if that is the case.
I do find it strange that it took me writing a blamed DISSERTATION on this to get people to understand that comparison is a good way of determining the value of something...
Even SUCK is a relative term! In Brazil, the Master System DOESN'T COME SLOSE TO SUCKING. It RULES there.
Here, it's basically POINTLESS.
I'm NOT going into why. Wiki it.
Point HERE is that comparing GOOD and BAD things is a good way to see how much BETTER or WORSE they are.
Just saying "That's STUPID because...IT'S STUPID!" Isn't productive.
Neither is "That's stupid because...I don't like it!" or "...it's difficult!" Not good enough.
Relative terms need a baseline.
Mine in this case is CT.
Your might be different.
So what?
you know what they say about opinions and assholes...they're both all over ILX.

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:13 (nineteen years ago)

In Brazil, the master system plays you

roc u like a § (ex machina), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:14 (nineteen years ago)

actually, this thread will make more sense if i start copying the images over, too

http://ps2media.ign.com/ps2/image/article/705/705770/final-fantasy-xii-20060508044040216.jpg

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:15 (nineteen years ago)

ah, here we go:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/7b/Moogle.png

kingfish prætor (kingfish 2.0), Friday, 29 September 2006 17:16 (nineteen years ago)

Cause we gotta little ol' convoy, rockin' through the night
Yeah we gotta little ol' convoy, ain't she a beautiful sight?
Come on an' join our convoy, ain't nothin' gonna git in our way
We're gonna roll this truckin' convoy, cross the.....OH NOOOOOOOO!

timmy tannin (pompous), Saturday, 30 September 2006 01:30 (nineteen years ago)


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