Another fucking spree shooting. Great.

Department of Public Safety Director Steve McCraw told reporters that 40 minutes to an hour elapsed from when Ramos opened fire on the school security officer to when the tactical team shot him, though a department spokesman said later that they could not give a solid estimate of how long the gunman was in the school or when he was killed.

“The bottom line is law enforcement was there,” McCraw said. “They did engage immediately. They did contain (Ramos) in the classroom.”

Heckuva job, Brownie

perhaps this will inspire bipartisan support for increasing the police budget another 25%

Also, according to that Vice timeline, it took 23 minutes from the first 911 calls to the school going on lockdown?

I know these things can be chaotic, but wtf. My son's school was on lockdown around dismissal time because of a police manhunt and we didn't receive the notifications telling us not to come pick up our kids until about an hour after the lockdown was over.

About the only good thing we can say: school's out in the next week or so.

A long Twitter thread from an ex-EMT about how badges are for hiding behind.

🧵I can't fucking sleep tonight. Kept thinking about one of my last calls as an EMT after reading about cops not willingly putting themselves in harm's way. August 2001. I pulled my bus up just outside the PD cordon at the site of a DV call. 1/

— Dan Kim (김명준) (@danielmkim) May 26, 2022

“The reality is, as horrible as what happened, it could have been worse,” Abbott said. “The reason it was not worse is because law enforcement officials did what they do: They showed amazing courage by running toward gun fire for the singular purpose of trying to save lives.”

Imagine what would have happened if those cops weren't there!

I've seen a few references to the idea that there have been court decisions establishing that police are under *zero* obligation to interfere in ongoing crimes—their duty is exclusively to investigate crimes after the fact, not to prevent crime or protect/come to the aid of victims—but none of these refs have been very official. Does anyone here know if this is true?

If so, I'm surprised I didn't hear more about that during the abolition debates in 2020, though it's certainly possible I did and forgot

Thanks Neanderthal!

yeah who would've prevented the parents from trying to save their kids

That Dan Kim post actually made me mad all over again

Latest rumor is the cops went in to get their own kids before helping take down shooter

― Gymnopédie Pablo (Neanderthal), Wednesday, May 25, 2022 7:32 PM (yesterday) bookmarkflaglink

pls no rumors, pls

― Society for the Preservation of (cat), Wednesday, May 25, 2022 7:44 PM (yesterday)

no details, but official confirmation at 1:10 in this interview:

“1st acknowledge the brave men and women of law enforcement,” not condolences to the family first. Also, the cops engaged the shooter before he entered the school, and they are still alive? Finally, cops went in and pulled their own kids out during the active shooter threat. WTF? pic.twitter.com/4okN01jGjq

— Gale Farce (@_Sir_Perfluous) May 25, 2022

I've seen a few references to the idea that there have been court decisions establishing that police are under *zero* obligation to interfere in ongoing crimes—their duty is exclusively to investigate crimes after the fact, not to prevent crime or protect/come to the aid of victims—but none of these refs have been very official. Does anyone here know if this is true?

If so, I'm surprised I didn't hear more about that during the abolition debates in 2020, though it's certainly possible I did and forgot

― rob, Thursday, May 26, 2022 10:58 AM (ten minutes ago) bookmarkflaglink

https://www.sun-sentinel.com/local/broward/parkland/florida-school-shooting/fl-ne-douglas-survivor-lawsuit-federal-judge-20181217-story.html

i understand the criticism and it makes sense in a vacuum, but this is going to lead to more funding for training of cops in schools

because, as many have expressed, what else can we do? literally nothing happens. all they can do is half-heartedly throw money at the problem, and you know that the cops are going to swoop up all of that

thanks peace, man

I bumped the abolish thread in case people don't want to talk about this here, but @Karl, since this is apparently an established legal principle, I'm not sure I understand your response?

I cover a lot of public meetings where police funding gets discussed, and one of the cliché mantras is that "They run toward danger while everyone else is running away from danger." I guess by "run toward" they mean, "establish a perimeter at a safe distance and wait for backup."

I've seen a few references to the idea that there have been court decisions establishing that police are under *zero* obligation to interfere in ongoing crimes—their duty is exclusively to investigate crimes after the fact, not to prevent crime or protect/come to the aid of victims—but none of these refs have been very official. Does anyone here know if this is true?

I've used the phrase "janitors with guns" before.

I bumped the abolish thread in case people don't want to talk about this here, but @Karl, since this is apparently an established legal principle, I'm not sure I understand your response?

hi rob, sorry i should have thrown an xp on there. i wasn't directly referring to your post (or peace, man's) about the obligation (legal) of police to do something.

i just meant, in general, as with most mass shootings, there is a sense of befuddlement afterward about what can be done to prevent them again, as the entire world points to the number of guns that we have in this country, and the other side does the "thoughts/prayers/we need more good people with guns/we need to limit the number of entry points to all buildings to 1/we are suddenly concerned with mental health" routine.

in most cases, lawmakers do absolutely nothing. in this case, since the cops were useless, it may lead to more funding more cops in the future in an effort to make them less useless.

(sorry for confusion on that - rereading it, i can see that it looks like i was replying directly to you! i was more just shouting at the clouds

fuck the brave* men and women of law enforcement

got it, Karl. and yeah I don't even know why I care at this point. for some reason I guess I get some tiny pathetic crumb of intellectual comfort from knowing the pro-cops side is lying even more than I previously knew they were lying

I guess when I'm proselytizing about "never call the cops no matter what" I can now add this to my pitch. I recently made myself look slightly insane to my parents when I freaked out after they told me it's their HOA's official policy to call the police if any resident sees anyone going door to door for any reason

I've mentioned before, but we have an absolutely obnoxious email list for our neighborhood that is filled with bootlicking boomers with way too much time on their hands and their response to literally fucking anything is to call the cops. Unfamiliar car parked legally? Call the cops. Squirrel in the back yard? Call the cops. Canvassing in the neighborhood? Call the cops. Myself and a few other neighbors that I genuinely like will push back on this mindset, frequently, responding with links to not cop associated resources when appropriate, but it's like trying to stop the rain from falling. Calling the cops is just so fucking ingrained in the brains of so many people.

it's true that cops don't have to help you if you're in danger.

https://www.nytimes.com/2005/06/28/politics/justices-rule-police-do-not-have-a-constitutional-duty-to-protect.html

I’m friends with a former police officer (we knew each other long before she took on that job), and rest assured, they hate these nuisance calls.

Her favorite (not really favorite) one was someone calling the police for help with a plumbing problem.

i ain't passed the bar
but i know a little bit
and legally you guys
don't have to do shit

there's a good 5-4 podcast on at least one of the cases mentioned in the story that bamcquern just linked: https://www.fivefourpod.com/episodes/castle-rock-v-gonzalez/

(i also just linked this on the abolish the police thread)

American Pie singer Don McLean has pulled out of this weekend's National Rifle Association annual meeting in Texas, following Tuesday's tragic shooting at a school in the state.

"I have decided it would be disrespectful and hurtful for me to perform," McLean said in a statement...

why the hell were you gonna play it anyway?

Every time I see the thread title I imagine Al Pacino's Ricky Roma muttering, "Another fucking spree shooting. Great. Another waste. of. time."

Fuuuuuck.

Joe Garcia, the husband of Irma Garcia, one of two teachers shot and killed in Uvalde, TX on Tuesday, has reportedly suffered a fatal heart attack. Joe and Irma were high school sweethearts and married 24 years. They leave behind four children. pic.twitter.com/Rlk0M2B8nR

— Ernie Zuniga (@Ernie_Zuniga) May 26, 2022

Because prior to Tuesday the NRA had an unblemished reputation for... oh wait...

Seriously, I'm guessing he was getting a ton of cyber vitriol yesterday. And rightly so.

xxp

fucking hell

he should still play, being subjected to a Don McLean concert is the least of the many punishments those goblins deserve

truly a broken heart... jesus christ

This NRA convention wasn't made for one as beautiful as you

'drove the chevy to levy and we shot at some guys...'

The NRA did not listen. They're not listening still. Perhaps they never will.

The state of this scumbag...

https://news.sky.com/video/texas-school-shooting-sky-news-qustions-senator-ted-cruz-over-gun-control-at-uvalde-vigil-12621594

“I’m sorry you think American exceptionalism is awful,” Cruz said. “You’ve got your political agenda. God love you.”

Yeah, Ted, I think we can all agree that particular example of exceptionalism is pretty awful

Do I think systemic change is imminent? No. Do I think enough people are changing their minds to make a lasting difference? Extremely doubtful. That said, I am ever so slightly heartened today to see some folks in my life who, up until this very week, have been bootlickers and toeing the "cops are great" line, start expressing doubts about that very idea and acknowledging that they really maybe aren't all that worthy of praise.

These are barely bits of crumbs of hope, but after this week I need to take solace where I can find it and fucking anything that starts to chip away at the idea that cops are good is appreciated.

seeing a lot of bad faith "what law would have prevented this" arguments and it's infuriating because we know what laws actually are effective (see: every country on Earth) but also because in some sense, I know they're right

the problem is the guns. we all know that. we have 1.2 guns for every man, woman, and child in this country. we have 5% of the world's populations and 40% of the world's guns. and the reason for this is our culture is so gun crazy. an entire political party has made it their signature issue and uses the 2nd amendment as a reliable applause line. they make campaign ads with their guns. they take Christmas cards where the entire family is packing heat. half their social media posts showcase them outfitting their middle schoolers with AR-15s with captions like "triggered yet, libs?" this entire culture is based around the idea that one day, you WILL need to shoot someone. it's fucking insane. what if, instead of guns, they were holding sticks of dynamite? or vials of cyanide? you'd think these people are lunatics. but it's all normalized now and I don't know how you can reverse it. even Dem politicians start off every sentence with "look, I'm not trying to take away your guns..."

the problem with this is that every fucking campaign ad where some dipshit conservative starts shooting up some newspaper is an advertisement for guns. every Instagram post, every time they tweet "SHALL NOT BE INFRINGED", it's all an ad. it works the same way any product placement in any movie works. what I keep coming back to - and maybe those older than me can correct me here - is that pre-Columbine, nobody would've conceived something so horrible. I don't think it would have been in anyone's head to shoot up a fucking school no matter how depressed or bullied or "redpilled" or whatever they were. now, the idea is in everyone's head. if the world pisses you off too much, you can just shoot up a school, or a supermarket, or a church, or just start firing into a crowd. how do you go back??

Cops should get on their knees every night and bless Hollywood for every cop show ever. Hollywood has stuffed money in the pockets of cops with all the fervor of James Harden in a strip club.

the shooter bought his guns on his 18th birthday, which was the first day he was legally allowed to buy a gun. sure seems like legal restrictions were keeping him from buying a gun before.

how do you go back??

No perfect answers, but you start with making it far more difficult to purchase assault rifles and hundreds of rounds of ammunition. An 18 year old can't buy beer, no way should they be able to buy TWO weapons in the same week. Increase background checks, increase the wait times in order to do so, and push for licensing and registration of firearms just like cars. Most of this is common sense, and some conservatives are even on board with some of it (or at least claim to be in the wake of the gun tragedy du jour.)

I'm so fucking sick of arguments like "well, if they want the gun bad enough they will buy it illegally anyway." A kid in small town Texas might not know anywhere to buy an illegal firearm, and the difficulty of finding one might just dissuade him. I'm willing to see how that works.

I remember years ago Feinstein briefly went on this tack: "The 2nd Amendment doesn't say word one about ammunition" and her idea at the time was a thumbprint for any ammo purchase.. it didn't go anywhere, but there's something there

Cops should get on their knees every night and bless Hollywood for every cop show ever.

Imagine the shooter's terror if those cops had blasted "Bad boys bad boys, whatcha gonna do" while they waited for backup to arrive.

A mom of two children at Uvalde was put in handcuffs after urging police and law enforcement to enter the school.

Once freed from her cuffs, she jumped the school fence, ran inside and sprinted out with her kids.

New from @WSJ: https://t.co/SYdgysw0gF pic.twitter.com/ZCadllw9aT

— Megan Menchaca (@meganmmenchaca) May 26, 2022

I remember years ago Feinstein briefly went on this tack: "The 2nd Amendment doesn't say word one about ammunition" and her idea at the time was a thumbprint for any ammo purchase.. it didn't go anywhere, but there's something there

― Andy the Grasshopper

This wouldn't help for these kind of situations, since the shooter ends up dead or in custody anyway.

You could permanently ban all gun sales tomorrow and there would still be too many.

Imagine the excrementstorm of sending police (or sheriffs or marshals or whatever) door to door through Texas, attempting to confiscate the existing guns. "Hello, sir, would you please put your seventeen guns into this bin?"

It's not feasible.

Never mind that the people charged with collecting even a fraction of the existing firearms are, themselves, probably ammosexuals who would instinctively oppose the whole project.

Note, I am not saying it's a bad idea to try to do anything, just that anything you could realistically try to do would be woefully insufficient.