A John Carpenter Poll

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Some of the films to which John Carpenter was attached at one point but eventually left were Top Gun, Fatal Attraction, The Golden Child, No Way Out, Star Trek: The Motion Picture, Deal of the Century, Armed and Dangerous, Firestarter and The Philadelphia Experiment.

So feel free to pick the film John Carpenter should have directed out of that lot, too.

Poll Results

OptionVotes
The Thing (1982) 24
Big Trouble in Little China (1986) 9
Escape from New York (1981) 8
Assault On Precinct 13 (1976) 7
Halloween (1978) 6
They Live (1988) 5
Starman (1984) 3
Dark Star (1974) 1
Christine (1983) 1
Prince of Darkness (1987) 0
The Fog (1980) 0
Memoirs of an Invisible Man (1992) 0
In the Mouth of Madness (1995) 0
Village of The Damned (1995) 0
Escape From L.A. (1996) 0
Vampires (1998) 0
Ghosts of Mars (2001)0


Matt #2, Monday, 3 September 2007 23:02 (sixteen years ago) link

Impossible.

Alex in SF, Monday, 3 September 2007 23:18 (sixteen years ago) link

When he's on, he's way the fuck on. Then there's the rest of the time. Anyway, "The Thing" is the best of his best period (the Kurt Russell trilogy) and also possibly the best paranoid horror movie ever made.

Starman is quality, too.

Oilyrags, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 00:15 (sixteen years ago) link

I voted for "The Thing" because I can't make it through that movie - it freaks me out v. thoroughly.

Sara R-C, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 00:21 (sixteen years ago) link

Thing! Thing! Thing!

latebloomer, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 00:27 (sixteen years ago) link

The Thing.

jed_, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 00:28 (sixteen years ago) link

gotta be Halloween for me

dmr, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 00:46 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.sensesofcinema.com/images/directors/03/25/they_live.jpg

The Yellow Kid, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 01:05 (sixteen years ago) link

I picked Assault on Precinct 13. He has at least two movies that are "better" movies (The Thing and Halloween) but the simplicity of AoP13 appeals to me. Ghosts of Mars is sooooooooooo terrible.

n/a, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 01:09 (sixteen years ago) link

Oh, Escape from NY is probably better too.

n/a, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 01:09 (sixteen years ago) link

Plus Assault on Precinct 13 has the awesomest music.

n/a, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 01:12 (sixteen years ago) link

Virtually impossible to choose between these six:
Assault On Precinct 13 (1976)
Halloween (1978)
Escape from New York (1981)
The Thing (1982)
Big Trouble in Little China (1986)
They Live (1988)

The rest in order:
Christine (1983)
The Fog (1980)
Prince of Darkness (1987)
Escape From L.A. (1996)
Dark Star (1974)
Ghosts of Mars (2001) (this is kind of underrated)
Starman (1984) (I don't really remember this well, it might be higher)
In the Mouth of Madness (1995)
Village of The Damned (1995)
Vampires (1998) (this is the only one I can remember thinking okay this is really bad)

Never seen:
Memoirs of an Invisible Man (1992)

Alex in SF, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 01:24 (sixteen years ago) link

I wonder if Dark Star is as much fun as I remember it being. (Saw it when I was 17.)

Rock Hardy, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 01:31 (sixteen years ago) link

In the Mouth of Madness is underrated

latebloomer, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 01:36 (sixteen years ago) link

Yeah it's pretty creepy.

Alex in SF, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 01:43 (sixteen years ago) link

OK, unlike the Hitchcock one, I did not vote pragmatically here. I went Christine and also considered The Fog. That said, I hope Assault on Precinct 13, The Thing or They Live win over Escape from New York or Big Trouble in Little China.

Eric H., Tuesday, 4 September 2007 02:16 (sixteen years ago) link

Mmmm Vanilla Twist.

pisces, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 02:41 (sixteen years ago) link

I went for The Thing, but now wish I'd gone for Dark Star. Or Escape From New York. Or maybe Halloween. A John Carpenter-directed Fatal Attraction would have won it though.

Matt #2, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 12:27 (sixteen years ago) link

I like that he's never made a remotely serious movie (well except for Starman, I guess.)

Alex in SF, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 13:49 (sixteen years ago) link

Really reaaly difficult, for me though it's

Halloween
A on P13
The Fog
Big Trouble In LC
They Live

The music on Halloween just beats out the music on A on P13 for me but they are both awesome.

Already i feel like Escape from NY and Starman should be top 5 as well.

Ned Trifle II, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 14:13 (sixteen years ago) link

And The Thing

Ned Trifle II, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 14:14 (sixteen years ago) link

I'm curious what you mean by a serious movie, Alex.

Oilyrags, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 14:16 (sixteen years ago) link

I think he means movies I like (ie, out of respect to you fanboyz, I am going to abstain rather than vote for Starman).

Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 14:23 (sixteen years ago) link

EXACTLY! Haha no I mean that he never tried for Oscar-fare or to really move out of the horror/sci-fi niche he created for himself. Obviously a lot of other horror/b-movie guys haven't either, but every time I think of oh Raimi for example, I still think it's neat that guys like Romero/Craven/Carpenter just stuck with what they were good at.

Alex in SF, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 14:56 (sixteen years ago) link

in fairness, apparently I haven't seen 4 of Eric's 5 faves. Please warn me if there are any others like Big T in Little C.

Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 15:03 (sixteen years ago) link

Morbs, at least give The Fog a shot. It's got very Val Lewtonian overtones.

Eric H., Tuesday, 4 September 2007 15:06 (sixteen years ago) link

I will, someday

Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 15:08 (sixteen years ago) link

I actually think "The Thing" is a pretty serious picture, even though the filmmaking itself is mostly about thrillpower. The whole cold-war 'enemy within' sci-fi invasion sub-genre is 'serious' imo, even if I can't really define what I mean by serious.

"Starman" is just "The Thing" standing on its head.

Oilyrags, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 15:10 (sixteen years ago) link

I'm not sure those are my 5 faves, either. Halloween would certainly give They Live a run for the fifth slot.

Eric H., Tuesday, 4 September 2007 15:14 (sixteen years ago) link

The Thing is so f'ing scary. Love it.

Trip Maker, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 15:20 (sixteen years ago) link

The Fog isn't very good.

n/a, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 15:25 (sixteen years ago) link

What's not to like? ... I mean, other than it not being particularly scary?

Eric H., Tuesday, 4 September 2007 15:27 (sixteen years ago) link

Yeah there isn't enough to 'The fog', a half-hour stretched to movie length.

Most of his films have some kinda veiled commentary to me - but done in a seriously entertaining way.

And yes, incredible music - seriously underrated as a film composer/arranger isn't he? Everybody loves Morricone, etc. but he sure knows how to pack a punch. 'Ghosts of Mars' is up there with his very best in that respect.

xyzzzz__, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 18:23 (sixteen years ago) link

http://www.i-marco.nl/weblog/images/bush_they_live.jpg

We're inching closer to the inevitable John Landis poll.

Eazy, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 18:25 (sixteen years ago) link

I still think it's neat that guys like Romero/Craven/Carpenter just stuck with what they were good at.

Craven did that Meryl Steep movie...

latebloomer, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 18:34 (sixteen years ago) link

Plus he wasn't very good at what he was good at.

Eric H., Tuesday, 4 September 2007 18:39 (sixteen years ago) link

voted 'they live' just to be objective, but it almost, almost went to 'prince of darkness' just to rep for it. the scene where alice cooper kills the nerd guy from 'riptide' with half a bicycle (a scene so brilliant it is spoiler-proof) and the shared dreams with television interference.

Milton Parker, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 18:40 (sixteen years ago) link

'Escape from NY' for me, which just shades 'The Thing' as I skived off school to see it.

I also really rate 'The Eyes of Laura Mars', which he wrote.

Soukesian, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 20:50 (sixteen years ago) link

The Thing

I have no memory of Starman and was kinda unaware it was even his movie

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 21:44 (sixteen years ago) link

Haha I totally suppressed that stupid Meryl Streep movie that Craven did!

Alex in SF, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 21:51 (sixteen years ago) link

I don't think I've seen a single one of these. Maybe parts of Halloween when I was a kid.

jaymc, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 21:53 (sixteen years ago) link

it was downhill for Raimi after that stupid BillyBob Thornton hillbilly "thriller" movie

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 21:54 (sixteen years ago) link

you mean the fine A Simple Plan? o u kid

Dr Morbius, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 21:55 (sixteen years ago) link

It was downhill after Quick and the Dead! Actually A Simple Plan s'okay.

Alex in SF, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 21:57 (sixteen years ago) link

oh man I forgot about the Quick and the Dead ugh

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 22:00 (sixteen years ago) link

It was downhill after Quick and the Dead!

You mean there are worse films than Quick and the Dead??!?!

ledge, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 22:03 (sixteen years ago) link

The Gift's mediocre.

Alex in SF, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 22:04 (sixteen years ago) link

I only saw it last night, and was AMAZED at the awful crash-zoom-piled-on-crash-zoom editing, totally destroying whatever semblance of tension the movie might have had.

xpost.

ledge, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 22:04 (sixteen years ago) link

horribly shitty casting doesn't help either - I'd say its only marginally more of a trainwreck than Carpenters' Vampires, which is unforgiveably bad

Shakey Mo Collier, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 22:07 (sixteen years ago) link

Apparently Sharon Stone insisted on DiCaprio and Crowe, and even paid their fees to get them over the studio's wishes.

ledge, Tuesday, 4 September 2007 22:12 (sixteen years ago) link

It's really not good, and unlike some of his other misfires, it doesn't even *look* good.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 21 October 2021 02:00 (two years ago) link

It’s silly on purpose, and the bad cgi compositing looks way better than the cgi-animated fights in Marvel Comic Books Cinematical Universe Film Company movies. Plus Bruce Campbell and Buscemi rule.

It would probably also have had its legacy helped if he’d been allowed to make Escape From Mars properly. Each movie just getting bigger and goofier, like the Fasts and Bond.

bobo honkin' slobo babe (sic), Thursday, 21 October 2021 03:20 (two years ago) link

Escape From New York cast is all time - Russel, Van Cleef, Pleasance, Isaac Hayes, Ernest Borgnine, Adrienne Barbeau, Harry Dean Stanton!

Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 21 October 2021 09:53 (two years ago) link

The HALLOWEEN wrap party at John Carpenter's apartment, 1978 pic.twitter.com/2SR22c260B

— Diane Doniol-Valcroze (@ddoniolvalcroze) October 16, 2021

Daniel_Rf, Thursday, 21 October 2021 09:55 (two years ago) link

xp don't forget fake Michael Biehn as the white haired weirdo.

(had to double check my gag in imdb and wow he was in Grease and Logan's Run?)

Chicks and Ducks and Geese better scurry (Ste), Thursday, 21 October 2021 10:39 (two years ago) link

xp: The Coup de Villes! I love the spooky picture behind Nick.

peace, man, Thursday, 21 October 2021 10:41 (two years ago) link

So little discussion of In the Mouth of Madness in this revive. One of his best, imo.

Gimme some skin! Because I don't have any skin. (Old Lunch), Thursday, 21 October 2021 11:11 (two years ago) link

watched it in the cinema at release, never seen it since. Warrants a rewatch for sure as I don't recall hating it at all.

Chicks and Ducks and Geese better scurry (Ste), Thursday, 21 October 2021 11:21 (two years ago) link

I've seen it once. I remember not hating it, but at the time I had read so much Stephen King that I was really sick of horror media about horror authors.

peace, man, Thursday, 21 October 2021 12:09 (two years ago) link

This made my morning.

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/FCH9euAVEAcqznf.jpg

but also fuck you (unperson), Thursday, 21 October 2021 12:23 (two years ago) link

In the Mouth of Madness is actually pretty good.

And Escape from LA, sure, is silly on purpose, but it's more important to be good than silly and it is not good. And I know you're being somewhat facetious (xpost), but the composite FX are so bad you'd almost think they were bad on purpose. But they're not. Just like Ghosts of Mars is not bad on purpose, either.

Never forget:
https://i.makeagif.com/media/3-15-2016/miAlrn.gif

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 21 October 2021 12:25 (two years ago) link

I was curious, and it looks like Carpenter more or less worked with the same DP from "Prince of Darkness" on, Gary Kibbe. I'm trying to figure out why his movies just keep looking flatter and flatter, and worse and worse. Maybe it was just the '90s, but it's possible Carpenter also just didn't give a shit.

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 21 October 2021 12:29 (two years ago) link

Escape from New York has had a huge influence on video games. How many first person shooters out there seemingly start with the same premise Duke Nukeem onward?

Considering the stuff that gets made these days, I'd love for someone to be able to get OK to do a prequel streaming series about Snake Plisken outlining some of the stuff that gets discussed in the movie.

earlnash, Thursday, 21 October 2021 12:32 (two years ago) link

Hell, Escape from New York should *be* a video game.

Apparently it got a board game, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_from_New_York_(game)

Josh in Chicago, Thursday, 21 October 2021 12:36 (two years ago) link

I believe there were a fair few side scrolling beatem ups in the Arcade/16 bit era that basically had the plot of "tough guy has to fight his way out of criminal ran city"

Chicks and Ducks and Geese better scurry (Ste), Thursday, 21 October 2021 12:44 (two years ago) link

Considering the stuff that gets made these days, I'd love for someone to be able to get OK to do a prequel streaming series about Snake Plisken outlining some of the stuff that gets discussed in the movie.

― earlnash, Thursday, October 21, 2021 8:32 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

I don't wanna know what happened to Fresno Bob. I just don't think I could take it.

peace, man, Thursday, 21 October 2021 13:36 (two years ago) link

Hell, Escape from New York should *be* a video game.

Apparently it got a board game, though.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Escape_from_New_York_(game)

― Josh in Chicago, Thursday, October 21, 2021 8:36 AM (one hour ago) bookmarkflaglink

Just went to look it up on ebay, for shits and giggles. Apparently doesn't fetch prices that are too insane? There's an opened, used one for $60, which you could buy plenty of new board games for these days. Unopened they are still mostly under $300. I mean, that's pretty expensive, but I've seen higher for some open-box games that I had been looking for.

peace, man, Thursday, 21 October 2021 14:29 (two years ago) link

apparently the Blank Check podcast is more popular than i assumed

If you land on the right one when you’re in the right mood, it can be sublime. For example, their review of Rise of Skywalker where they keep yelling “the Dead Speak!” off mic at each other, or gushing about Fury Road.

Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Thursday, 21 October 2021 16:14 (two years ago) link

yeah the Halloween ep w Alex Ross Perry caught me in the right mood, loved it so much

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 21 October 2021 16:22 (two years ago) link

Totally agree w/Chinaski upthread about The Fog.

BBC1 showed it a few days before Xmas in 1983, I would have been 11 years old and I still vividly remember the excitement of school breaking up for Christmas and taping/rewatching this strange movie, it just put me in the tank for any of JC's films I could get my hands on from that point.

Maresn3st, Thursday, 21 October 2021 18:17 (two years ago) link

Watched Village Of The Damned for the first time last night - now that really sucks. I was laughing at the extremely '90s TV-movie level cast, until reading Carpenter quoted during production that the wild expense of hiring Kirstie Alley, Mark Hamill, Christopher Reeve and Linda Kozlowski was why he was having to make a boring, studio-noted-to-death adaptation.

greatest Blank Check moment ever was Paul Scheer returning to the Used Cars episode after leaving to take a business meeting for close to an hour

bobo honkin' slobo babe (sic), Thursday, 21 October 2021 18:26 (two years ago) link

Not to derail the JC thread, but not a fan of the How Did This Get Made? folks tbh. Like shit, how can they say the exact same 2-3 things for three hours and still come off like they didn’t get enough time. I thought that Big Trouble ep was kind of a drag because of them.

Blank Check is generally really good though. Beholden to the guests. The Halloween ep with Alex Ross
Perry is particularly great.

Anyway. I really wanna revisit Prince of Darkness. Seemed kinda dull/incomprehensible the two, way-too-late times I’ve seen it. My old-head Carpenter super fan friend has always maintained it’s secretly one of his best, I guess that’s not an uncommon opinion anymore.

circa1916, Thursday, 21 October 2021 20:12 (two years ago) link

i like scheer & mantzoukas mostly but yeah the big trouble ep was not as enjoyable as i hoped: it was mostly just obvious padding & digressions to make it longer than their prev appearance

i didnt like the escape from ny ep either, they love that girl (name escapes me) that was the guest but i dont enjoy her

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Thursday, 21 October 2021 20:19 (two years ago) link

btw Escape from New York board game is on Tabletop Sim if you have it.

Chicks and Ducks and Geese better scurry (Ste), Thursday, 21 October 2021 20:26 (two years ago) link

I was listening to the Projection Booth episode on Escape from New York this afternoon. They always tend to be rambling but generally good value and there's always an interview with someone with unique insight (interviews with Adrienne Barbeau and Nick Castle on the EfNY episode). There's one for Big Trouble as well.

https://www.projectionboothpodcast.com/2021/04/episode-517-escape-from-new-york-1981.html?m=0
https://www.projectionboothpodcast.com/2019/01/episode-397-big-trouble-in-little-china.html

Vanishing Point (Chinaski), Thursday, 21 October 2021 20:53 (two years ago) link

I knew the Big Trouble In Little China ep of Blank Check was going to be a dud as soon as they trotted out the two most obvious, well discussed aspects of that film - Russel is doing a John Wayne impersonation and it's about a white guy who thinks he's the hero but is actually p much irrelevant to the narrative - like they were mind blowing galaxy brain takes. I've enjoyed Sheer and Mantzoukas in stuff but I tried listening to How Did This Get Made ages ago and it'd drive me up the wall - they were so invested in the WHAT IS HAPPENING incredulity at bad movies thing that they would often complain about supposed plot holes that were totally addressed within the films, which they clearly just half-watch. Considering that the movies they pick ain't exactly Resnais their incapability of understanding them didn't make me think much of their movie analysis skills.

Loved the Escape From NY ep, but one that's my fave Carpenter and two I love Karen Han (Karen's Boys videos are chef's kiss). Can't imagine not enjoying the description of Ernest Borgnine as "the senior citizen who most looks like a toddler", and the reveal that he had a reality show in the 90's where he'd drive in a bus to meet fans was enough to make the ep worth it for me.

Daniel_Rf, Friday, 22 October 2021 09:36 (two years ago) link

it's about a white guy who thinks he's the hero but is actually p much irrelevant to the narrative

Something the Red Letter Media ep asked is whether anyone had this reaction at the time or is it only something that's been picked up over the years as the film entered the cult cannon.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 October 2021 12:09 (two years ago) link

What’s the answer?

bobo honkin' slobo babe (sic), Friday, 22 October 2021 12:10 (two years ago) link

They didn't offer one! I assume they didn't look, though tbf neither have I.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 October 2021 12:20 (two years ago) link

Carpenter definitely talked about it in original press for the film. Here are some clips from a variety of 1986 articles. In most of these, they only talk about Jack and Wang in terms of "an inversion of the hero/sidekick trope", but I feel like they are asking the reader to do the work of figuring out "oh the hero is usually white and people from a different race are usually the sidekick". In the last article, Carpenter comes right out and talks about the racism that Asian-Americans experience.

''Our movie is rated PG-13,'' Carpenter said. ''Our hero, Jack Burton, is no Rambo.

''He's inept but courageous. In fact, we've reversed the hero-sidekick relationship. Traditionally, the hero is a strong, silent man of action. Our hero slips on banana peels, talks about how great and strong he is. But his Chinese sidekick (played by Dennis Dun) has all the real heroic qualities.

"In 'Big Trouble in Little China,' the usual roles in an action-adventure are reversed. Dennis Dun is the sidekick, but he's the one with few words and quick action. Kurt is the star, but he's the bumbler who seems out of place. Yet you like him because of his courage. He thinks he's John Wayne, but he's really Harold Lloyd."

* Kurt Russell and The Hell Of A Thousand Pratfalls.

To play Jack Burton, the "hero" of Big Trouble, Carpenter turned once again to Kurt Russell, as he did for Escape From New York and The Thing. Originally, he had wanted Clint Eastwood. But then Russell's performance in Escape was virtually an Eastwood impression.

As his inspiration for Jack Burton, however, Russell took a different tack. "I thought of guys I relate to," Russell explains. "Movie presences like John Wayne, which is I guess the most obvious one. And there was a rhythm that was at times like rhythms that were charming and really fun to watch out of Jack Nicholson.

"My underlying control of all these guys was Eddie Haskell (from Leave It To Beaver). He was this wise guy that was able to get away with stuff even though everybody in the room knew he wasn't."

Jack Burton, you see, is a hero with a difference, a tough-talking bumbler whose heroics are generally the result of sheer dumb luck.

"In the script he wasn't nearly as full of that as we ended up doing," Russell says. "The character just wasn't as broad. I thought, let's take a chance here and go with what's true to this movie, which is that this guy should fall on his ass a lot and he should be the butt of as many jokes as he's the giver of.

"Now you're really starting to ask a lot of an audience, because that's not been done before. But we felt the sidekick should emerge as the silent man of action and Jack should have to assume the duties of the traditional sidekick role."

* Dennis Dun and The Hell Of Unemployed Asian Actors.

For his part, "sidekick" Dennis Dun was more than happy to pick up the slack in the hero department. "I could have come off like a dumb, stupid regular sidekick," he smiles. "But this is different, offbeat. And I like playing offbeat characters."

Like the ill-fated undercover cop in the controversial Year Of The Dragon. Despite the outrage expressed by the Chinese community, Dun feels Dragon represented an important step for Asian actors.

"I don't regret doing the film," he says. "I understand the concerns of the community, violent images and all that, but I think Year Of The Dragon is part of an important transition. We're getting an opportunity to do things that we weren't able to do before. Just look at John Lone on the screen - I don't think anybody's ever seen an Asian actor in an American film with his charisma, his presence."

"Big Trouble in Little China" subverts the normal action hero cliché. While Jack Burton is still the traditional white male action hero, he's not nearly as useful as Wang Chi. In fight scenes, Jack is constantly struggling against one goon, while Wang takes down more than a half-dozen of them with ease.

The growing Asian population in the United States has finally rung some bells in Hollywood's executive chambers.

An increasing number of films now involve Orientals.

To be sure, the numbers are still small, but in relatively little time Asia and Asians have played prominent roles in ''Rambo: First Blood II,'' ''Year of the Dragon,'' ''The Killing Fields,'' ''The Karate Kid'' and ''The Year of Living Dangerously.''

Completed but unreleased are ''Gung Ho'' and ''The Karate Kid II.'' On the production schedules are ''Tai-Pan,'' ''The Last Emperor,'' ''China Marines,'' ''Empire in the Sun'' and ''The Golden Child.''

Most films involving the Orient are tailored not for Asian-Americans but for the rest of the nation. Many are flawed by inaccuracies, prejudice or stereotyped characterizations and events.

The Hollywood mentality has traditionally focused on the cliche of the ''inscrutable'' Chinese or Japanese going back to ''The Hatchet Man,'' ''The Bitter Tea of General Yen'' and ''The Mask of Fu Manchu.''

For years, there weren't enough Asian moviegoers in the United States to make a difference at the box office and too few of them to register a significant voice of protest. Consequently, producers and studios became careless in the depiction of Asian minorities.

During World War II every ''Jap,'' of course, was a heavy and usually a sadist.

But increasing trade and cultural relationships with Japan and detente with China, begun by President Nixon, have opened new vistas of understanding and respect for Asians.

The flood tide of boat people and others from Southeast Asia and the growing Korean and Filipino populations, especially in Los Angeles, have further exposed Americans to Eastern cultures.

At long last, Hollywood is catching up with the reality of the expanding Asian influence in this country.

Director John Carpenter, who recently completed ''Big Trouble In Little China,'' calls this the era of the Asian.

His fantasy film, starring Kurt Russell, involves a cast of 200 Asians in an adventure-drama about a mythical city beneath San Francisco's famed Chinatown.

The cast is principally Chinese but includes Japanese, Koreans and Filipinos.

To prepare for the film, Carpenter spent months of research and endless hours in conference with his associate producer Jim Lau (a scholar, master of martial arts and historian) and project coordinator Daniel Kwan (a journalist and actor).

''I wanted to be as accurate and fair as possible in representing Asians in this country as they really are,'' said Carpenter during a break in post-production work at the 20th Century Fox commissary.

''We are seeing more pictures about the Far East than ever before. There is a great deal of curiosity about that part of the planet thanks to renewed ties (with) China and (to) the Vietnamese War.

''I get the feeling Asians are coming into their own with their culture, mythology and a sense of (who) they are as people.''

Carpenter generally refers to the Chinese when he speaks of Asians but much of what he says pertains to other Eastern nationalities. Asked if he thought Asians were essentially different from Westerners, he hedged.

''Yes and no. They are different because they are deeper than any culture in the world -- especially the Chinese. They enjoyed a sophisticated civilization 5,000 years ago when Europe was populated by barbarian tribes. They developed science and art while the West was still a cultural desert.''

To illustrate the essence of being Asian, Carpenter cites a line from the film that was written by a Chinese writer: ''China is in the heart and wherever they go, China goes with them.''

''Their basic difference from Westerners is manifested in subtle ways … in all areas of religion, philosophy and interpersonal relationships.

''I find the differences fascinating. There is a major struggle going on with most Asian-Americans. They would like to be perceived as ordinary Americans, professionals or working people. Yet they also want to preserve their culture and maintain their distance from the rest of the population.

''It is an interesting ambivalence that frustrates Asians in this country a great deal.''

Asian-Americans also must deal with ''the additional problem of anti-Asian violence increasing enormously in the past two or three years,'' said Carpenter. ''It's racism and (it's) getting stronger than the anti-black bigotry.

''The mood in this country is that it's okay to be a racist.''

The various Asian groups seldom coalesce for a common cause. Los Angeles is dotted with enclaves of Asian communities: Little Tokyo, Chinatown and Korea Town. Orange County has become a Vietnamese stronghold.

But then the same was true of the Irish, Italian and German immigrants who gathered in ethnic pockets in New York City in the last century.

According to Carpenter, Asians are increasingly disenchanted with their image in Hollywood movies. He cites protests registered last year over Michael Cimino's unsuccessful ''Year of the Dragon,'' starring Mickey Rourke as a New York cop busting up crime in the Chinatown underworld.

''That picture insulted a lot of Chinese,'' he reported.

''From what I gather, Hollywood's treatment of the Orient perpetuates stereotypes'' like those of blacks before the civil rights movement, Carpenter said. ''Now Asians want their version of 'The Defiant Ones' or 'The Heat of the Night.'

''One of the great cliches is the 'inscrutable' element ascribed to Asians. It began in the West when Chinese laborers came here to build the railroads. Most were from Canton. They assumed passive attitudes to separate themselves from the cowboys and others who shot up the streets at night. They didn't show their emotions in order to survive.''

Carpenter reported that he ''had no trouble communicating with the Asians on this picture. There was an open forum on the set. I welcomed suggestions to give the picture texture and reality.

''I didn't want the picture to come out looking like a white man making a film about Chinese.

''To give you an example, in one sequence a character, played by Victor Wong, drives a tour bus through Chinatown. Victor delivered his lines in a dialect different from the rest of his dialogue. He told me his grandfather used the same dialect when he drove a tour bus. It was a sing-song speech that added the right amount of humor to the scene.

''Asians, after all, are like people everywhere with the same emotions and individuality. It's their sense of history and culture that makes them somehow more distinctive.''

Many Asian-Americans are indifferent to Hollywood's movies about the East and Asians simply because they speak no English and rarely see films.

Others think of themselves as Americans first and Asians second.

Los Angeles dentist Yin Kim, a first generation Korean-American, said, ''I think Asians are fairly represented in movies and TV. There is a good balance between Asian villains and good guys. Even the anti-Japanese flavor of World War II movies didn't bother me because I think like a white American who simply comes from Korean parents. I don't even speak Korean.

''Keye Luke always did well as 'Charlie Chan's' number one son, and my brother-in-law, Keye Chang, played a U.S. Navy admiral in a picture.

''I used to see Philip Ahn, Richard Loo and Anna Mae Wong play Asians. They did good jobs in characterizing a variety of individuals and nationalities. I always laughed when I saw Philip play mean Japanese villains. He was Korean and one of the sweetest guys I ever knew.

''No, I don't see any prejudice against Asians in films,'' Kim said. ''Being born a Korean-American is better than being born … as a less ethnic American because I have the culture of both East and West instilled in me.

''A lot of people in this country are ashamed of their ethnic background. But not Asians.''

Real estate investor John Kanagaye, a Japanese-American, said, ''I don't care how Asians are depicted in movies. I'm American-born and the mystique of Asia is as much a mystery to me as it is to other Americans.

''I am thorougly integrated in this culture, perhaps because of my children (bringing) all their friends around. I don't see many movies and I have no idea how bad or good they depict Chinese or Japanese characters.''

Keye Luke, dean of Hollywood's Chinese actors -- who is not in ''Big Trouble In Little China'' -- has mixed emotions about Asians in American films.

He is happy Asian actors are finding work but doubts whether the Asian image has improved much in the new spate of films. He also questions whether the trend will endure.

''It's the same old wine in a new bottle,'' he said. ''Only this time the bottle is Chinese. There is an upsurge of interest in Asians but the content of stories and characters aren't much different from other films based on minorities.

''I doubt if there will be good results socially. Most Americans are aware that Asians are generally hard-working, industrious citizens who have compiled a good record in this country. Their daily acceptance has little to do with motion pictures. Relationships between Asians and other Americans are good.

''My objection to films about Asians is that the stereotypes still exist about the mysterious, often menacing Oriental bad guys. Asians are no more mysterious than anyone else.''

Luke, a native of Canton who came to the United States with his parents when he was 3, feels he is fully integrated in the American mainstream but adds, ''The Chinese culture is so deeply ingrained in us that we cannot escape it. It's been going on for so long. As American as I am, I feel Chinese and love it. It is the richest part of my life.

''I spoke at UCLA recently to a group of Chinese, Japanese, Korean, Filipino and Vietnamese students. I told them they have a rich culture behind them and the best of Western civilization in this century. I said take the best of both and make something of your lives.

''To be honest, depicting Asians on film may change the thinking of other Americans, but to Asians it really doesn't make that much difference.''

peace, man, Friday, 22 October 2021 14:26 (two years ago) link

sorry, lol. I knew that last article was long, but didn't quite realize how long.

peace, man, Friday, 22 October 2021 14:26 (two years ago) link

That was great, thanks. That movie is ahead of its time is so many ways, no wonder it flopped.

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 October 2021 14:34 (two years ago) link

"in"

Josh in Chicago, Friday, 22 October 2021 14:35 (two years ago) link

one month passes...

The new “The Ward” episode of Blank Check pod is really good - convo w Drew McWeeny about collaborating w Carpenter & a very sentimental conversation about what those last few movies were like for him etc

Upshot: Carpenter is the best, guys

terminators of endearment (VegemiteGrrl), Sunday, 5 December 2021 21:12 (two years ago) link

Good episode. Surprised the two friends rated Assault On Precinct 13 so low - near perfect film imo, as great an example of Carpenter's stripped down approach as Escape From New York. Agree with the general "spoilt for choice" sentiment tho.

Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, 7 December 2021 11:01 (two years ago) link

one year passes...

Watching “Starman.” Damn if this ain’t an underappreciated 80s classic.

Also, I forgot this was a first contact + road movie combo

Also, Carpenter didn’t do the score, Jack Nitzsche is credited

Glower, Disruption & Pies (kingfish), Tuesday, 27 December 2022 04:44 (one year ago) link

prince of darkness is my fav

ciderpress, Tuesday, 27 December 2022 19:32 (one year ago) link

The discussion of Big Trouble jogged something in my mind. I could have sworn I remember Alex Cox introducing it as part of Moviedrome and pointing out that Kurt Russell's character is a third wheel. But seemingly he didn't, although he introduced several John Carpenter films. Here's his take on Escape from New York. He describes They Live as Carpenter's most recent film, so I assume Cox's introduction was recorded in 1989 or 1990 or so:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YpNGOsxwZ3A

In his opinion New York was a disappointment because the special effects were no good and it wasn't shot in New York. I was disappointed with the film too, but not for those reasons. I felt that it looked great, and in any case it took place mainly at night, in a fantasy version of New York, and my hunch is that most of suburban New York doesn't look like New York either. But perhaps Alex Cox was being deliberately provocative so that he could get social media likes on Prestel or Ceefax or whatever. How did you subscribe to someone in 1990? Did you just obsessively read about them, or something? Or send them fan mail?

Every time I watch Escape from New York I think to myself "why don't I like this film more", and then I think "I remember why I don't like this film more", and I also think "Adrienne Barbeau". It has a great setup. But after Snake reaches New York he gets captured and it turns into a boring chase. Then it ends. It's as if Where Eagles Dare skipped from the opening sequences to the end, without "sit down major" and the cable car fight etc. Or imagine if The Turin Horse but they stay in the farm the whole time.

Second act? Is that what it doesn't have? It has a truncated second act. Skimming through the list of Carpenter's films it strikes me that all of the ones I have seen bar The Thing and Assault on Precinct 13 have felt disappointingly incomplete. It's as if he was compelled to make films as efficiently as possible, even if that meant writing the absolute minimum amount of story.

Ashley Pomeroy, Tuesday, 27 December 2022 22:48 (one year ago) link

You should check out a BTiLC version with the Carpenter/Russell commentary. They're so pleased with Kurt's subversive ineptitude compared to Dennis Dun, makes me wish their instincts and chemistry had led to more movies together.

Feeling better about The Rock's BTiLC being a continuation instead of a remake, if it's ever made.

the body of a spider... (scampering alpaca), Tuesday, 27 December 2022 23:06 (one year ago) link

i watched in the mouth of madness for the first time in the past year and that is a good movie! maybe the last genuinely good movie carpenter made? definitely one of the best endings to a movie ever

na (NA), Wednesday, 28 December 2022 15:20 (one year ago) link

The Thing was a movie I tapped out on thrice on my first three attempts within a half hour because it seemed like a boring creature feature, and only this year did I realize that's not the allure of it at all, but the Invasions of the Body Snatchers-esque assimilation. So rewatched and stuck with it and loved it this time.

Fash Gordon (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 28 December 2022 17:44 (one year ago) link

One rare time a spoiler made me revisit a film

Fash Gordon (Neanderthal), Wednesday, 28 December 2022 17:45 (one year ago) link

Brought the new year in with The Fog. I think it's perfect and certainly in my top 3 (er, The Thing, Big Trouble, The Fog). The credit sequence is so great. Apart from Barbeau's voice, no one speaks for the first 12 minutes; you get a series of those trademark, almost Hopper-esque, cuts from Dean Cundey - a brilliant introduction to the town and the atmosphere.

Shard-borne Beatles with their drowsy hums (Chinaski), Sunday, 1 January 2023 11:25 (one year ago) link

love the fog, love its mood and simplicity. not enough ghost stories.

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 1 January 2023 11:27 (one year ago) link

89 minutes! It's probably a fair amount of residual trauma from seeing it as a kid, but I think it's genuinely creepy too. Also, poor Mrs Kobritz - she didn't deserve that. (In my head, she's Mrs Colditz, always has been.)

Shard-borne Beatles with their drowsy hums (Chinaski), Sunday, 1 January 2023 11:33 (one year ago) link

ten months pass...

Morbs right again, Starman is grebt!

Shifty Henry’s Swing Club (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 12 November 2023 16:47 (five months ago) link

Underrated/under-remembered. Bridges got an Oscar nomination!

Josh in Chicago, Sunday, 12 November 2023 16:49 (five months ago) link

I can't believe I pasted a Jordan Ruimy tweet upthread smh

Dwigt Rortugal (Eric H.), Sunday, 12 November 2023 18:33 (five months ago) link

Underrated/under-remembered. Bridges got an Oscar nomination!

A combination road movie and first contact movie as somebody on this borad said.

Shifty Henry’s Swing Club (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 12 November 2023 23:16 (five months ago) link

The love story angle is pretty well done too, as the alien becomes somewhat human but not fully so.

Shifty Henry’s Swing Club (James Redd and the Blecchs), Sunday, 12 November 2023 23:17 (five months ago) link


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