Rolling US Economy Into The Shitbin Thread

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personally I'm applying for a civil servant position ASAP

El Tomboto, Thursday, 18 October 2007 23:45 (ten years ago) Permalink

Just FYI, during the 1930s depression, many civil servants were paid with vouchers rather than cash, because local governments were unable to collect property taxes and their receipts fell into the shitbin.

Aimless, Friday, 19 October 2007 00:12 (ten years ago) Permalink

Economy's doing poorly enough as it stands, why do we deliberately want to roll it into the shitbin?

Abbott, Friday, 19 October 2007 00:14 (ten years ago) Permalink

Because that way Hillary can rescue us all.

Dandy Don Weiner, Friday, 19 October 2007 00:17 (ten years ago) Permalink

lol property taxes

El Tomboto, Friday, 19 October 2007 00:18 (ten years ago) Permalink

shitbin's a great word, BTW.

Dandy Don Weiner, Friday, 19 October 2007 00:20 (ten years ago) Permalink

you been loving my thread titles lately

El Tomboto, Friday, 19 October 2007 00:26 (ten years ago) Permalink

i came to this country some time ago with little more than a crippling debt burden in GB Pounds and the shirt on my back. i used to have to send back $1,200 each month to pay off my UK debt, and now I'm sending back over $1,400 to cover the same amount of debt repayment. that's two and a half thousand dollars disappearing from my tiny disposable income every year, for no explicable reason. i *heart* the decline of the US economy.

Roberto Spiralli, Friday, 19 October 2007 00:27 (ten years ago) Permalink

anyway why start this thread now because the bit where ritholtz points out that domino's pizza can't print new menus fast enough to keep up with inflation was pretty fucking amazing

I wish rasheed wallace was still around to show us the latest and greatest exploding bubble blogs

El Tomboto, Friday, 19 October 2007 00:28 (ten years ago) Permalink

wow Roberto that was some shitty timing, that sucks

El Tomboto, Friday, 19 October 2007 00:29 (ten years ago) Permalink

This was in the paper today:

Mortgage defaults

Hit an annual rate of 1.5 million in September. That compares with 900,000 last year from fewer than 800,000 in 2005. At the current rate, more than one million Americans will lose their homes to foreclosure, making this the worst housing recession since the Second World War.

Housing starts

Sank to a 14-year low of 1.19 million in September. Starts are a vital economic engine, creating jobs and growth as people stuff their homes with sofas and TVs. Starts peaked at 2.3 million in early 2006, and the decline will be a drag on the rest of the economy until the slide stops.

Mortgages

A quarter of the roughly 50 million U.S. home mortgages are subprime. That's seven times the number of high-risk mortgages there were in 2001. That means that many more marginal homeowners have mortgages, making it far more likely they'll wind up in default.

House prices

Fell 3.2 per cent in the second quarter. Prices are falling faster and more broadly than they have in decades, according to the closely watched Case-Shiller index.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/LAC.20071018.IBUSECONOMY18/TPStory/Business

everything, Friday, 19 October 2007 00:29 (ten years ago) Permalink

In regard to inflation, in the USA during the past three years inflation has been soaring - but almost entirely in the housing sector. The fact that people are encouraged to see their houses as investments rather than as expenses doesn't mean that skyrocketing housing costs weren't inflationary. They were.

As the bubble market bursts, I predict a recession with an extra added bonus of inflation running close to 10% - before the end of 2008. As it has for the past 30 years, the official CPI will understate the real inflation rate. It was rigged under Reagan so that government entitlement programs indexed to the CPI would not increase at the true pace of inflation.

If Bush continues to shovel shit on the dollar right up to the end of his term in January 2009, the inflation rate could hit 15%-20% by 2010.

Aimless, Friday, 19 October 2007 00:55 (ten years ago) Permalink

There are some good economics articles put up here as well:
http://www.VoxEU.org

stet, Friday, 19 October 2007 01:02 (ten years ago) Permalink

Which shit on the dollar are you referring to?

Dandy Don Weiner, Friday, 19 October 2007 01:02 (ten years ago) Permalink

As the bubble market bursts, I predict a recession with an extra added bonus of inflation running close to 10% - before the end of 2008.

lol

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Friday, 19 October 2007 06:11 (ten years ago) Permalink

this is why i live in canada!

J0rdan S., Friday, 19 October 2007 06:13 (ten years ago) Permalink

oh wait.

J0rdan S., Friday, 19 October 2007 06:13 (ten years ago) Permalink

Guys, this is a good time stay in academia right?

Catsupppppppppppppp dude 茄蕃, Friday, 19 October 2007 11:51 (ten years ago) Permalink

It's a good time to learn a European language.

Nubbelverbrennung, Friday, 19 October 2007 13:33 (ten years ago) Permalink

Prime shit examples:

When Bush was elected in 2000, the federal budget was in surplus and the national debt was being paid down. Had this state of affairs continued, as projected, it would have led both to lower interest rates and a strong dollar, together. Instead, Bush submitted a series of enormous tax cuts to the Republican-controlled Congress and lobbied them through. Immediately, the CBO's projected budget surpluses turned to projected deficits for the next decade.

Bush also initiated a war of choice, not necessity, in Iraq. This war has already cost well over $700 billion. Yet, Bush insisted on making his tax cuts permanent. Overall, the national debt has increased under Bush by about $2 trillion in seven years. This represents a difference of about $3 trillion of debt from what was projected at the start of his first term.

Because, due to Bush's tax cuts and other policies, the Federal government was in a far weaker position to stimulate the economy when the recession started after 9/11, almost the entire stimulus was delivered via lower interest rates. Because these rate cuts were artificial, and not based on a stronger dollar, this stimulus not only inflated the current housing bubble, but it also undercut the dollar even more than the ballooning national debt did.

Now the dollar is at an all-time low against the euro and the canadian dollar. However, the incomes of the top 10% of American households have increased at a good clip, while the lower 50% of households have seen a decrease in income after inflation. This is largely thanks to Bush's shitty policies. I expect more of the same mismanagement until he is gone.

Aimless, Saturday, 20 October 2007 18:36 (ten years ago) Permalink

I agree with everything you've just said. You're predictions still seem a tad extreme on the downside though, if I may so.

aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa, Saturday, 20 October 2007 18:50 (ten years ago) Permalink

i wonder if income inequality will ever arrive as a political issue in this country. americans tend to not begrudge the rich - so it'll have to be more of a "for everyone's good" type of angle. no?

jhøshea, Saturday, 20 October 2007 18:54 (ten years ago) Permalink

I remember the 1970s and early 80s quite well. Back then people couldn't belileve it, either. Bush has done a bangup job of recreating many of the same policy errors under Johnson and Nixon that led to raging stagflation back then, except the underlying economy is now weaker than it was in the 1970s and the oil shocks we are likely to get are not political, as when OPEC was formed, but structural.

Oil will exceed $100/barrel some time this winter. The ever-weakening dollar will lead to smaller profit margins and rising retail prices on all imported goods (which means almost everything we buy in the USA). Transport costs will rise with pil prices. Stock prices will erode along with profits. With so many savings tied up in stocks and home equity, consumer spending will be crunched, and personal debt and bancruptcies will rise like a tide. Businesses will retrench and unemployment will rise. No end in sight.

I hope I am wrong.

Aimless, Saturday, 20 October 2007 19:07 (ten years ago) Permalink

Anyone want to join my modern-day James Gang? We shall ride across the lower Midwest, robbing and pillaging.

milo z, Saturday, 20 October 2007 19:09 (ten years ago) Permalink

sounds fun

jhøshea, Saturday, 20 October 2007 19:13 (ten years ago) Permalink

Sorry, I don't want to relocate. But this scheme sounds ripe for franchising.

Aimless, Saturday, 20 October 2007 19:14 (ten years ago) Permalink

Oil will exceed $100/barrel some time this winter. The ever-weakening dollar will lead to smaller profit margins and rising retail prices on all imported goods (which means almost everything we buy in the USA). Transport costs will rise with pil prices. Stock prices will erode along with profits. With so many savings tied up in stocks and home equity, consumer spending will be crunched, and personal debt and bancruptcies will rise like a tide. Businesses will retrench and unemployment will rise. No end in sight.

I hope I am wrong.

-- Aimless, Saturday, 20 October 2007 19:07 (14 minutes ago) Link

The coming of $100/barrel oil is not Bush's fault. It's yours and mine and everyone else's for using too damned much energy. I agree Bush could and should have done a lot more with policy to encourage energy efficiency, but there's little he could have done to stop oil's eventual rise to that price level.

Hurting 2, Saturday, 20 October 2007 19:26 (ten years ago) Permalink

Part of the pricing of oil represents the weakness of the dollar. This hurts the USA more than it does other countries. US citizens are paid in dollars and the US government collects revenue in dollars, so they are stuck. EU countries can use euros to buy increasingly cheap dollars, so they don't see the same rise in prices as we do. The weakness of the dollar is mainly Bush's fault.

Aimless, Saturday, 20 October 2007 19:31 (ten years ago) Permalink

The US also uses way more oil than other countries.

Hurting 2, Saturday, 20 October 2007 19:33 (ten years ago) Permalink

he could have done to stop oil's eventual rise to that price level.
Not starting a war in Iraq would definitely have helped here.

stet, Saturday, 20 October 2007 19:57 (ten years ago) Permalink

arrgh, if that won't work then
http://calculatedrisk.blogspot.com/2007/10/imf-mortgage-reset-chart.html

El Tomboto, Monday, 22 October 2007 17:47 (ten years ago) Permalink

tombot u r freakin me out

gff, Monday, 22 October 2007 17:50 (ten years ago) Permalink

i hope my small apartment + modest savings plan + job in "information services" is enough to weather the shitstorm, if it comes. i got myself out of credit card debt a few months ago, at least

gff, Monday, 22 October 2007 17:53 (ten years ago) Permalink

well if you can hold down a job and don't have to worry about an ARM reset you should be okay, it's the homeowner with kids and a subprime loan and two cars who ought to be shitting themselves

El Tomboto, Monday, 22 October 2007 17:58 (ten years ago) Permalink

apart from some student loans and binging on credit cards over a few years, i'm kind of debt phobic.

which has actually made me lose out over the past several years, i realize, since i pay for EVERYTHING with a debit/check card... i could have just paid that balance on a credit card with some rewards scheme and has some air miles or something

gff, Monday, 22 October 2007 18:00 (ten years ago) Permalink

rolling gff personal finances into the shitbin thread, ha

gff, Monday, 22 October 2007 18:01 (ten years ago) Permalink

This will give you a boner Tombot

http://nymag.com/guides/money/2007/39952/

Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 11:30 (ten years ago) Permalink

the economy increased by 3.9% this quarter! bull market forever, baby. economy's better than ever. golden age.

yet me and so many people I know are getting laid off next month. granted we're all in the writing/design field, but urhhhhh. gggg.

burt_stanton, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 14:58 (ten years ago) Permalink

http://nymag.com/guides/money/2007/catastrophist071105_560.jpg
http://nymag.com/guides/money/2007/catastrophist071105_2_560.jpg

^^^ lol

most of that guy's scenario is not really news to regular bigpicture/CR readers I don't think. But #5, the "we don't pay attention" thing, yeah, well, evidently the awareness campaign is underway, but hell if the big players are paying attention.

He also leaves out the approaching demographic catastrophe as millions of inexperienced thirtysomethings and even some late-twenties kids are forced to move into arguably tougher jobs that the boomers have been holding for two decades. Beyond the social security and healthcare costs associated with mass retirement, I don't really know if this generation has the work ethic and definitely not the rolodex to just start filling in and not fuck up royally. too busy updating their linkedin pages.

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 15:11 (ten years ago) Permalink

can someone explain what "being upside down on your mortgage" means, in plain English?

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 16:14 (ten years ago) Permalink

essentially, owing more than your home is worth.

Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 17:10 (ten years ago) Permalink

also Tombot I'm not going to blame this generation as much as I blame their parents.

Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 17:11 (ten years ago) Permalink

isn't that the way people buy homes? by paying for the privilege of a loan?

Tracer Hand, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 17:12 (ten years ago) Permalink

When you enter into a contract with a bank for a mortgage, both you and the bank assume that the property value will not plummet. The bank doesn't want you to default any more than you want to default. But if for whatever reason you need to sell your home, and you can't get what you owe on it, then you will owe the difference to the bank. And the bank knows that when that happens, you probably will not have enough assets to cover the difference.

Predatory-type loans (which seems like a nebulous description to me) typically compound the problem because they have higher transaction rates (points, etc.)

Dandy Don Weiner, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 17:17 (ten years ago) Permalink

oh certainly! well played baby boom letting healthcare slide for the 20 years you've owned the electorate

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 17:18 (ten years ago) Permalink

yeah Tracer it's also called "negative equity"

El Tomboto, Wednesday, 31 October 2007 17:19 (ten years ago) Permalink

most ominous first post ever?

here we go guys

― El Tomboto, Thursday, October 18, 2007

― scott seward, Friday, March 2, 2018 4:13 PM (yesterday) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

This thread is why I was stockpiling bulk foods 10 years ago

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Saturday, 3 March 2018 22:58 (two months ago) Permalink

Dried potato flakes are nearly nutritionally complete (just add a few greens), and last 30 years.

It's because I'm human, isn't it?! (Sanpaku), Monday, 5 March 2018 20:51 (two months ago) Permalink

■ 313,000 jobs were added last month, the most since October 2015 and the 89th straight month of gains, a record. Economists had anticipated a gain of about 200,000.

Mordy, Friday, 9 March 2018 14:25 (two months ago) Permalink

cool, lets add 1.5 trillion of stimulus to that

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Friday, 9 March 2018 16:14 (two months ago) Permalink

Fix the US economy by building trains everywhere is my core political belief

valorous wokelord (silby), Friday, 9 March 2018 16:19 (two months ago) Permalink

We can sell Train Victory Bonds

valorous wokelord (silby), Friday, 9 March 2018 16:19 (two months ago) Permalink

TRUMP TRAINS BABY *choo choo*

I’m 16 and a member of UKIP’s youth wing, young independence (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 9 March 2018 16:20 (two months ago) Permalink

I’m not too proud to ride a trump train, that’s how much trains matter to me

valorous wokelord (silby), Friday, 9 March 2018 16:26 (two months ago) Permalink

what if they have trump's grinning face on the front, like thomas the tank engine

I’m 16 and a member of UKIP’s youth wing, young independence (bizarro gazzara), Friday, 9 March 2018 16:27 (two months ago) Permalink

q: can dogs urinate on it?

NBA YoungBoy named Rocky Raccoon (m bison), Saturday, 10 March 2018 00:05 (two months ago) Permalink

hi

𝔠𝔞𝔢𝔨 (caek), Monday, 19 March 2018 17:59 (two months ago) Permalink

The so-called FAANG stocks - Facebook, Amazon.com, Apple, Netflix and Google-parent Alphabet - were hit among the hardest Monday.

!?

valorous wokelord (silby), Monday, 19 March 2018 18:01 (two months ago) Permalink

anyway, I'm pro-tanking-tech-stocks

valorous wokelord (silby), Monday, 19 March 2018 18:03 (two months ago) Permalink

FAANG were hit softly in the presence of those hit hardest

Sufjan in Worst Shithole of a Major American City (Sufjan Grafton), Monday, 19 March 2018 18:32 (two months ago) Permalink

also, when did everybody start using "so-called" in sentences that don't imply that the thing shouldn't actually be called what follows

Sufjan in Worst Shithole of a Major American City (Sufjan Grafton), Monday, 19 March 2018 18:35 (two months ago) Permalink

well, since forever, as "so-called" doesn't necessarily imply that

Roberto Spiralli, Monday, 19 March 2018 18:41 (two months ago) Permalink

but it does to me. and I've found others like me. you are supposed to say things like "this so-called 'general'" right before ripping the stars and bars off of the general's uniform.

Sufjan in Worst Shithole of a Major American City (Sufjan Grafton), Monday, 19 March 2018 18:45 (two months ago) Permalink

I am talking about the cartoon general that sells insurance in the US btw

Sufjan in Worst Shithole of a Major American City (Sufjan Grafton), Monday, 19 March 2018 18:45 (two months ago) Permalink

At least back in 2010, probably much further.

The so-called PIIGS countries - Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain

Bring the Paine (Sanpaku), Monday, 19 March 2018 18:55 (two months ago) Permalink

love to sink my FAANGs into some PIIGS

valorous wokelord (silby), Monday, 19 March 2018 18:56 (two months ago) Permalink

Strictly speaking, I am wrong and you are right. It just doesn't play that way to everyone. If it can have both meanings, I'd suggest not using "so-called" if one isn't trying to poke holes in the term one is about to repeat. Nobody will mistakenly believe that they are reading the first ever use of some term or acronym. Point it out when you invent a term, by all means. But leave out "so-called" otherwise, and we'll all save time in sum.

Sufjan in Worst Shithole of a Major American City (Sufjan Grafton), Monday, 19 March 2018 19:00 (two months ago) Permalink

In the two examples itt, "so-called" does absolutely nothing if not also implying "this acronym is stupid"

Sufjan in Worst Shithole of a Major American City (Sufjan Grafton), Monday, 19 March 2018 19:02 (two months ago) Permalink

The acronyms do convey sentiment within finance. PIIGS were awful bond risks, FAANG have been deadly to other businesses in their categories.

Bring the Paine (Sanpaku), Monday, 19 March 2018 19:19 (two months ago) Permalink

ah, so "so-called" is saying the fangs are dull or some shit there? in that case, it is good.

Sufjan in Worst Shithole of a Major American City (Sufjan Grafton), Monday, 19 March 2018 19:25 (two months ago) Permalink

can we call them the NAAAF stocks instead

BIG HOOS aka the steendriver, Monday, 19 March 2018 21:58 (two months ago) Permalink

The so-called PIIGS countries - Portugal, Ireland, Italy, Greece and Spain

Good example of so-called as meaning you shouldn't call them that imo.

Daniel_Rf, Tuesday, 20 March 2018 11:18 (two months ago) Permalink

but countries with sovereign debt problems are like filthy animals to me

(robot gives Mum a hot dirty slap) (Bananaman Begins), Tuesday, 20 March 2018 11:54 (two months ago) Permalink

FAANG were hit softly in the presence of those hit hardest


No, they were among the hardest - the species of bulletproof tree from South America, a number of career criminals from supermax facilities, and a pile of uncut diamonds - when they were hit.

El Tomboto, Tuesday, 20 March 2018 12:21 (two months ago) Permalink

how many farmers do we hurt to help how many steel workers? MAGA

https://www.nbcnews.com/business/economy/american-farmers-trump-voting-states-may-get-hit-hardest-trade-n859396

reggie (qualmsley), Sunday, 25 March 2018 14:59 (one month ago) Permalink

trump’s diet should indicate his lack of regard for farmers

maura, Sunday, 25 March 2018 15:04 (one month ago) Permalink

Big dummy clearly had nothing to do with positive stock market performance, but how clear is it that his dumbness is precipitating its decline? Seems an overdue correction, tbh.

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 2 April 2018 18:23 (one month ago) Permalink

It's a combination of things, like usual, but the market is already overpriced, interest rates are rising for the first time in forever, there are stronger hints of inflation than there have been since gas hit $4 a gallon before the last crash, and all the tariff hard-manning from Trump isn't helping at all.

Thinking about a bit of profit-taking seems natural under the circumstances, so that fear could easily get the upper hand over greed. And with all the computerized trading in place, it will probably happen in a very compressed time span. Even a modest 10%correction will look shocking if most of it happens in three hours.

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 2 April 2018 18:35 (one month ago) Permalink

Think that will make a down market hard(er) to pin on the GOP in November?

Josh in Chicago, Monday, 2 April 2018 18:39 (one month ago) Permalink

The broader market needs to pull back at least 20% more before I would call it a correction. It was on steroids last year.

Yerac, Monday, 2 April 2018 18:40 (one month ago) Permalink

curious at what kind of meltdown the market would have if china said they'll stop buying our bonds. they kinda have us by the balls.

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Monday, 2 April 2018 18:58 (one month ago) Permalink

Probably not not that big a deal. Many feared inflation/collapse of confidence as the Fed bought 2 trillion in treasuries over the past decade. We didn't get wage inflation because global trade, but lots of asset inflation in equity and home prices as the liquidity sloshed through financial markets.

China's moves towards petroleum purchases in yuan may be a larger issue, in the long term, particularly if any third parties start buying in yuan as well. I've seen estimates that attributing 20-30% of the dollar's value to it being the unit of exchange for the energy trade.

#DeleteFacebook (Sanpaku), Monday, 2 April 2018 19:40 (one month ago) Permalink

thats why we do the saudis bidding

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Monday, 2 April 2018 20:05 (one month ago) Permalink

Of course, those $2 trillion don't entirely erase the US financial losses incurred by the US economy during the 2008 crash, but the Fed also took a hell of a lot of bad-debt-backed bonds off the hands of commercial and investment banks at the same time.

A is for (Aimless), Monday, 2 April 2018 20:15 (one month ago) Permalink

I’m not sure if China moving towards paying for oil in Yuan is anything more than sabre rattling, in the end it will increase the value of the yuan which will hurt manufacturing and exports and China is not far enough along the transition to a more domestically driven economy fornit jot to hurt right now.

In that it weakens the dollar and will drive inflation it’s probably part of the wider trade war. It’s probably inevitable in the long run so it doesn’t hurt to get the systems in place I recall this being threatened/tried multiple times over the last 15 years.

American Fear of Pranksterism (Ed), Monday, 2 April 2018 20:17 (one month ago) Permalink

four weeks pass...

happy may day 2018!

when was the last time the dow jones industrial stalled for four months straight after the latest biggest republican income tax cut in US history?

reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, 1 May 2018 14:21 (three weeks ago) Permalink

It's just gearing up, like cartoon characters running in place before zipping off.

Josh in Chicago, Tuesday, 1 May 2018 14:47 (three weeks ago) Permalink

Republicans be lining the walls of their banana stands with money rn.

a REAL SCARIE robot!!!! (Old Lunch), Tuesday, 1 May 2018 14:49 (three weeks ago) Permalink

i'm sure the algorithms will take over and we'll end the day +300 or some shit

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Tuesday, 1 May 2018 15:05 (three weeks ago) Permalink

oh those whacky millennials and their avocados! hmmm, reminds me I ought to investigate buying some avocado futures on margin.

A is for (Aimless), Tuesday, 8 May 2018 22:43 (two weeks ago) Permalink

https://www.politico.com/story/2018/05/09/trump-federal-reserve-independence-523275

Warsh added that he did not have the impression that Trump viewed the central bank as an independent organization meant to make decisions in the best long-term interests of the economy rather than at the bidding of the White House or any other political institution. “In some sense the broader notion of an independent agency, that’s probably not an obvious feature to the president,” he said.

Asked if the president appeared to understand the historical importance of the Fed’s independence from partisan political pressure, Warsh said: “This might be a good time for a no comment.”

j., Wednesday, 9 May 2018 13:47 (one week ago) Permalink

it'll be nice to know we spent 1.5t of potential future stimulus on propping up the tenth year of this business cycle to get good numbers for trump

officer sonny bonds, lytton pd (mayor jingleberries), Wednesday, 9 May 2018 15:13 (one week ago) Permalink

happy may day 2018!

when was the last time the dow jones industrial stalled for four months straight after the latest biggest republican income tax cut in US history?

― reggie (qualmsley), Tuesday, May 1, 2018 9:21 AM (one week ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink

tbf, the market is up 20% since Trump took office. Some of that is probably attributable to the fact that the market anticipated the tax cuts plus more, and we're now stalled out because there's no "plus more." But you can't really say the Trump stock market has been bad so far.

Fedora Dostoyevsky (man alive), Wednesday, 9 May 2018 15:30 (one week ago) Permalink

I've actually rad that the millenials are prine to nicks and cust in the genital area from to much shaving - flatbush and donger

Rabbit Control (Latham Green), Wednesday, 9 May 2018 16:16 (one week ago) Permalink


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