The Irish Abortion Referendum

I must confess my embarassment at not actually "getting" this at all, I do have a decent interest in politics normally. However I console myself with the fact that even if I did know everything about it I'd probably vote no because that's what Fine Gael are saying, and my uncle is their leader. I won't always vote with them I guess, but it's often hard to tell where my bias ends and my opinion starts. I've only voted in the Nice treaty anyway.

However, in 1992 in a court case involving a young girl who had been raped and impregnated (the X case), it was decided that actually people could have abortions where there was a real threat to the life of the mother, and that being suicidal counted as a threat to the life of the mother.

then we had some more referendums. I can't remember exactly how they panned out, but basically the result was abortion was notionally allowable where the mother was suicidal and also anyone who wanted to could travel to England for any reason (such as to obtain an abortion).

Now we are having a new referendum. this one is to amend the constitution to make abortion not allowable where the mother is suicidal.

The bizarre thing about it from a legal point of view is that as well as amending the constitution it is setting up a situation where some act of parliament can only be amended or repealed by having another referendum.

I mean it reminds me of the Unionists in the North, group of people desperate to not allow things take the course they seem to be taking.

Having said all that I think the interesting thing about Abortion as an issue is that unlike lots of other issues, you can rarely predict what someones view on it will be in line with their general outlook. That is to say, it seems to go so far beyond liberal vs. conservative or whatever.

Thank you DV - I had a feeling that underlying the whole referendum was a constitutional shift. We had something very similar here at SOAS two years ago when there was a student occupation. In a general meeting of well over 400 people, about 10-1 against the occupation, they voted to have a referendum on that - and all future - occupations (rather than more sensibly voting there and then in the most representative UGM we had ever had to end the occupation).

But even reading an interview with Eamonn Dunphy, who is a notorious (dickhead but not because he's a) liberal with regard to EVERYTHING, he said he was completely against abortion.

I have been shocked by several friends who are completely pro drug decriminalisation and seemingly very liberal coming out and denouncing abortion in fairly strong terms.

Having said all that, the existence of Britain and its' abortion laws make the whole thing something of a very controversial red herring.

But the stupidest most idiotic thing of all was the Freedom of Info. on Abortion referenda. HELLO? THE INTERNET????

jesus I'm a child and even I saw how fucking thick that was.

that was one of the referendums in the early 1990s. And was brought in to legalise abortion information (following court cases deciding that on the basis of the 1982 referendum abortion information was unconstitutional).

Exactly it; the pro-life case (which I also have *some* gut empathy for, despite rather than because of the arguments and antics of actual pro-lifers, and alongside a feminist/political commitment to choice) depoliticises abortion by insisting that the right to life is a one-time moral choice existing in a vacuum outwith other socio- political issues. So why should abortion be the sole example of a stark yes/no moral stance in re human life? Presumably lots of us are able to believe that the deliberate taking of a human life is wrong whilst simultaneously engaging in multiple hedging maneouvres re self- defence, euthenasia, even war and various liberation causes. What is it about abortion that allows sympathy for pro-lifers' removal of this issue from its complex ethical and social context and the other choices and (quality of life) issues that might muddy up the ethical waters?

Voting Yes changes the current position of the life of the mother being equal to the life of the unborn and makes it illegal for suicidal women in care to travel for an abortion.

Voting No maintains the present legal position, the right to life of the mother is equal to that of the unborn.

The reason we are having ANOTHER referendum on this matter is because the right to life of the unborn is enshrined within the Constitution, and can only be changed by public vote.

Yes 48.something No 51.something.

Meta question, isn't it bloody ridiculous Britain can have their election results by the end of the day nearly and yet it takes us longer with our 2.5mill electorate.

In any event, I'm unclear as to how a very common pro-life POV, "abortion is only permissible in cases of rape, incest, or endangerment to the mother's health", engages in "removal of this issue from its complex ethical and social context"; to me, that stance would seem to acknowledge at least a measure of that context, and is no more indictable for said removal (i.e. its recourse to moral principle) than is veganism/animal rights advocacy or opposition to the death penalty. It's largely a question of whether you believe policy ought to refer to (moral) principle, or confine itself to social utility -- and in turn whether you believe that principle to be revealed or materially based.

well i think we're handling this with the expected level of maturity and consideration

Useful reading. I don't know everything about it but the thing in America is that 8th, 8th and 10th generation "Irish Americans" use this shit to support their nauseating anti-abortion stance. And unlike them I had an actual Irish grandparent who didn't agree with anti-abortion politics.

Draft legislation due

Debate on the issue isnt inspiring

nobody on primetime calling the language describing a foetus as a human life. this is a basic thing to pull ppl on if you want to regulate a debate on this stuff

fighty lady shouty psychiatrists on primetime is good, pro-legislation one is my new favourite irish person

damn, christian comment spokeswoman is ws of shame material

lol

im so sorry but tbf im not sure that this hasn't occurred to the group at the same time

this debate is covering the ground nicely now, tbf, everyone is a p good advocate for their position, pro-choice side i obv found by far the more impressive

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/politics/d%C3%A1il-vote-on-abortion-bill-carried-by-138-to-24-1.1450291

creeping towards the 20th century

dirty immigrants gonna cause a no vote is the latest angle

Christ help us.

if they're dirty surely they'll be in favour

Gays vs Immigrants - FITE!

It's cominggggg

100k marching in dublin today against repeal of the 8th

they can all fit into a space that under normal circumstances cant have more than 17k

and half of them are kids and grandkids

its no wonder a few loaves and fish feed a crowd if thats how they count

good luck éire

oooof

scenes on boards.ie thread

plants pictured holding v inflammatory banners at previous pro-choice events (one saying 'abort sick children' or somesuch, another hoisting the logo of a british fascist org) have been spotted and identified as stewards for today's pro-life events

xp feires feire

Omg link the thread please darragh? I haven’t been on boards in years and find it incomprehensible now.

Wonder how many of the marchers were American? Did you see that mess with the pro-life activist running the @ireland account?

save u going to boards heres the tweet for first

twitter.com/SPE32/status/972512845232508930?s=19

cannot seem to link tweets properly soz

and second

https://m.facebook.com/SolidarityTimes/photos/a.341910489331727.1073741828.341899462666163/780496845473087/?type=3&theater

on that latter i might have confused that hes not a steward today but was def a plant at a womans day march prev

not sure if firm link other than cointelpro tactics

srsly tho these lunatics

Thank you! Will check those out now. Was reading the times article on this and just making a face at this:

“Ten weeks to ensure that the best of Irish people vote No to abortion,” she said. “Stand in the gap against the media and the international elites who think they could browbeat and bribe the Irish people into accepting the unacceptable, the killing of our own children,

Donegal trying to spoil the party, count still going on.

Hope there isn't anything that the committed No people can do to undermine this first step.

Because of the size of the margin, the government is going to move quickly on this. Opposing TDs have already indicated they will support the legislation.

No crowd could mount a legal challenge but it’s going to look desperate given how soundly they were beaten. It would take a substantial effort to have public opinion reverse on this now to the point they ever decided to have a vote on it again. The 8th was successful for so long because the right organised and planned for it, knowing that the level of constitutional protection would be difficult to overturn.

Thinking of Mary Robinson today. She opposed the original referendum in 1983, and she was David Norris’s counsel. So ahead of the times.

Donegal has a higher % of young people leave home than any other and it is cut off from the rest of the country (no rail connections). They will have had a higher percentage of elderly voters as a result. I read also that part of the country is now part of Sligo-Leitrim after boundaries changed.

Attn journalists ! When you're talking about Donegal as a county do add in the 63% of South Donegal that has voted Yes that was taken out of our constituency #justiceforDonegal #Donegal #RepealedThe8th

— Daithí for Yes (@Daithionaroll) May 26, 2018

how did Kerry vote?

that question could be about the cognitive ability or voting results.

Their official count isn’t in yet but Yes. Saw reports of people putting miraculous medals in with the ballot papers - hope that counts as a spoiled vote.

Miraculous medals and novena prayers amongst ballot papers in one of the boxes from Killarney.#Kerry #8thRef pic.twitter.com/vPNU7PLttv

— Seán Mac an tSíthigh (@Buailtin) May 26, 2018

lol!

http://i0.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/001/296/006/e90.gif

amazing

Well turned out

Well done!!!!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DeI69U7X0AExN9d.jpg

Referendums are suddenly back in fashion, not least among those who have spent the past two years trying to discredit one https://t.co/ZBKSB7AkVX

— Matthew Goodwin (@GoodwinMJ) May 27, 2018

Eat the book guy made several inane tweets comparing this to Brexit (everything is Brexit!) and got owned several times in the replies.

Someone referenced article 46 of our constitution, which means that the constitution can only be amended with a referendum, and he huffily dismissed it as “constitutional subtleties”! He should print his tweets off and eat them.

he is getting bodied in the replies lmao

this is heaping a lot of pressure on the self-confessed strong + stable feminist in no.10 as well, it's all good!

There's a great exchange from a month or so back where Carol Cadwalladr asks Goodwin why he's spent the past year slagging off her Cambridge Analytica story only to suddenly turn up in it.

So if i'm thinking right, what has been achieved by the referendum is that a veto on changing the law apropos abortion has been lifted and what can be said in public has been changed. The actual law that is being worked towards is only present i a sketched out form taht needs to go through debate in the Dail which could take as long as it takes. & only then will things be getting towards what the Yes side want.
& I'm not sure tow aht extent the No side can undermine all the stages up to a more stable end which the Yes side will want to be amended regularly since the heavily compromised end point is not going to where they want things to get to.

Hope enough momentum has been picked up and doesn't dissipate before we wind up at a point that resembles the 21st century more closely.
Already hearing the church complaining and hearing about the No side acting like victims.

and what can be said in public has been changed.
>
That is to say that several people have said during the campaign that it is only now possible to talk about abortion in public and actually refer to it as that.

& that the one thing the referendum has achieved without further legislative work is that the amendment which prevented any change has now been lifted which is a stage before actual change. & now the more conservative elements of the dail can try to delay any actual change from happening by keeping legislation being argued over as long as possible.

What do your sources think happened to people who said the word in public?

(This could have gone in the bad Guardian thread, but really there should be a collected bad take repository!)

Laurie Penny published a now locked piece about the referendum, it sounds like an absolute car crash. Irish twitter users have been queuing up to critique it. So much cringe. She actually used her own Irish background to deflect from the fact that she doesn’t know the difference between the Taoiseach and the Dáil!

This thread captures the worst of it:

I wrote a lot of stuff on my IG story about how bad I think this Laurie Penny article (https://t.co/4cPGQK2DKE) is, then remembered Twitter is meant to be the one for opinions.

so:

— thot experiment (@NaoiseDolan) May 28, 2018

In fairness, Laurie is pretty aware that she's fucked up:

https://twitter.com/PennyRed

She actually used her own Irish background to deflect from the fact that she doesn’t know the difference between the Taoiseach and the Dáil!

That is not something she did, no.

Yes, anyone can go on her timeline and see shite like this:

Because I’ve learned to my cost that there are some people for whom only deleting my whole account and never writing anything again would ever be enough.

— Laurie Penny (@PennyRed) May 29, 2018

Although I did ungenerously misrepresent the point, so yes, you’re right on that. Can’t imagine what made me view her so ungenerously!

Yeah, that is an unfortunate feature of her writing these days - to be honest any idea that starts with "I was hanging around with Amanda Palmer and she said" is unlikely to go anywhere good.

I'm actually in awe of her ability to make herself the story time and time again. Tone deaf cultural insensivity followed by frantic backtracking and apologies is kinda her MO at this point.

'Laurie Penny becoming the story' is something that's only happened because dozens of people have a weird obsession with her and have chosen to tweet about how bad this article is, though? It's weird to see so many people tweeting complaints that's she crowding out more informed/relevant voices given that most of us probably wouldn't even know that the LP piece existed if it weren't for those same tweets

that sounds like a pretty woolly defence tbh

havent read the piece whatre the objections

Marie Le Conte had the point earlier that there's definitely a case to be made for Patreon, but if you're using it to free yourself from the clutches of copy editors and fact checkers, maybe don't.

On one level I feel almost bad for her because she’s not the first British person with a catastrophically bad take.

On the other, the kind of inaccurate shite she’s peddling isn’t any less patronising coming from someone who’s supposedly on the side of the progressives.

And as Naoise Dolan so cuttingly put it:
https://twitter.com/naoisedolan/status/10016084485539676

It would be nice if British media didn’t feel the need to explain stuff through the voices of people not familiar with the country. Someone else in the thread pointed out that even emigrants had to tread lightly which I thought was interesting and accurate - I can comment on the culture but I don’t live there anymore and the country feels different every time I go back!

I feel it is slightly rich to expect Ireland to be this familiar with the Work of someone who was not herself familiar with the difference between Taoiseach and Dáil. https://t.co/kYU3Vxay6W

— thot experiment (@NaoiseDolan) May 29, 2018

What is her Irish background anyway?

big father ted fan iirc

'Laurie Penny becoming the story' is something that's only happened because dozens of people have a weird obsession with her

FWIW this happens to most female journalists especially young, left-wing feminist writers. LP's just especially blunder-prone, even though her heart's in the right place. To be fair this irritates me a lot less now that she's no longer the automatic go-to voice for lazy commissioning editors.

LP's writing is 1/3 "yeah, this is my view, good article" 1/3 "this is my view but I'm uncomfortable with you in my corner because this isn't the best take on it" and 1/3 "oh god no wtf" for me

condolences to the people of ireland on this one falling in that latter 2/3rds I guess

I did enjoy this post, clearly written by someone seething in about five minutes, that addresses how bad general British coverage of Ireland is.

https://www.joe.ie/amp/politics/10-rules-british-journalists-covering-irish-627662

Doing a good job conflating British with English there though that's what we expect from the Irish.

It does never cease to amaze me how little English people know about Ireland. Its right there! I always get asked if I'm from "southern Ireland." I had never heard this expression before I lived here! At first I was confused. I'm from the west! I know this seems petty, but in the aftermath of the EU referendum I went around lecturing people about the effect on the good friday agreement, until I realised that I was telling most people about the existence of the good friday agreement.

"and which part had the war?"

xxxp MLC actually mentioned commissioning editors in her list of things that Patreon deprives us of, but that's a good thing, I reckon. For perspective, I'm sure that we can all agree that anything that happened with Laurie is nothing compared with the fact that John Waters, the Raffles of oxygen, has been getting regular work all the way through this.

https://www.firstthings.com/web-exclusives/2018/05/ireland-an-obituary

the Raffles of oxygen

vg

most english ppl don't know much abt england either

there's a really distinctive lack of curiosity its true. I also recently explained to somebody (from brighton) where east anglia is.

https://proxy.duckduckgo.com/iu/?u=http%3A%2F%2Fi.dailymail.co.uk%2Fi%2Fpix%2F2009%2F03%2F03%2Farticle-1154159-067F4A5C0000044D-724_233x356.jpg&f=1

people whose mind is blown by the existence of "Dún Laoghaire" and think it's some sort of niche reference that only Ireland experts will get

passed and off to himself for signing

I saw this and haven’t really followed, are they still planning to charge €300 for the procedure?

Twitter moments categorised Savita’s death as “Indian woman who died in Ireland” and it made my eye twitch, so here are my favourite pictures of the Savita mural back in May:

The scene at Savita’s mural in Dublin’s Portobello as polls closed in Ireland’s abortion referendum pic.twitter.com/VAbVPSpCgi

— Rita O'Reilly (@RitaOReilly) May 25, 2018

The Savita mural in Dublin right now @rtenews pic.twitter.com/cbE2z9nnHl

— Samantha Libreri (@SamanthaLibreri) May 26, 2018

Flowers and messages left at a mural for Savita Halappanavar, who died in 2012 after she was refused an abortion pic.twitter.com/eXGqN7vOoq

— Eleanor Barlow (@EleanorBarlow) May 26, 2018

Flowers and tributes were left at the Dublin mural of Savita Halappanavar, who died in 2012 in an Irish hospital after she was denied an abortion while suffering the complications of a septic miscarriage. “I’m so sorry. My vote was for you,” one note reads. #8thRef pic.twitter.com/b5DRnfZFs9

— Sinéad Baker (@sineadbaker1) May 26, 2018

</3

idk gyac about the charges but id imagine not, possibly that was a reporting of some of the amendments that the religious td/senator crowd were tryinf to have implemented while it went through oireachtas

stress im not sure on that tho

I guess we can crowd fund a um, fund for people who need abortions?