"Ryan Giggs is the greatest Home Nations player of the Premiership era"

You can't argue with that many trophies.

I said that, and then immediately it occurred to me that Ray Parlour has won four FA Cups, three Premierships, a League Cup and a European Cupwinners Cup, and no one even tries to argue that he's the greatest player of the Premiership era.

That just means "most successful", though. What defines "greatness"? Giggs is... or has become, a fantastic team player, a great... if not leader in the commander sense, than in the exemplar sense. At times, especially in the first 3 years of his career, he's been a spectacularly exciting player, but since he's been 23 or so I think he's just been very consistently very good (with a few obvious examples of amazingness too - THAT goal against Arsenal, for example). If you take any of his attributes you can find someone else, probbaly someone else on the Manure squad, who can do any individual one better. But Giggs does them all, and does them all very consistently. I'm in danger of talking shit here. Cristiano Ronaldo is a better player, arguably. The goalscoring this season is something Giggs has never got close to. Rooney could be better.

Otherwise, who comes close? Shearer's way out front on goals but hasn't actually won much. There's a pretty watertight case for Paul Scholes, maybe Beckham as well. If we're including the Republic of Ireland here (are we?) then Roy Keane is a pretty strong contender. Maybe Gerrard, less so the Chelsea boys.

Otherwise, Robbie Fowler? Ian Wright? Michael Owen? Don't really see it.

Gary Speed.

I'm not going to be silly and mention Ian Rush, John Barnes or Glenn Hoddle just because they played in an early Premiership or two. I might mention Dave Kitson though.

Kind of joking. But only kind of. If Utd had signed him instead of Keane in 1993...

So why have home nations players been "worse" in the past fifteen years than the fifteen before? The influx of foreign players should only depress the middle, not the top. Why is there no Barnes/Best/Lineker/Johnstone/Blanchflower since 93?

How many trophies has Gerrard won? All cups, but there's some serious silverware there. I think we need to find a combination of talent and success for this. Shearer had the talent but not the success, although he did almost single-handedly win the league for Blackburn, seemingly, which is quite a feat.

I'm not sure there haven't been, Dom; I think if you put together the 'best' England squad of the last 15 years, and managed them properly, made them go out and fucking horse people with speed and mentalism, play at Premiership pace, then they'd start mincing tiny little Eastern European teams rather than drawing 1-1. Sol Campbell, Ferdinand, Gerrard, Scholes, Shearer, Owen... Maybe part of the problem is that we've bought in all our flair to the domestic league from abroad.

What players outside the Premier league, or else foreigners inside it, are THAT much better? Or have been... Henry? Zidane? Totti? Ronaldinho? Cantona? Zola? Ronaldo? Vieri? There's not masses. When did Germany last produce a phenomenal world class player? Is Ballack the best they can do? What about Spain? Lots of good players, few truly amazing ones. I think we're in an era of athletes rather than artists. Lampard's as good as Platt. Probably better. Stan Collymore could've been better than the lot of them if he hadn't gone batshit.

Dom, Rooney could make it up there in time. Owen looked like doing it once upon a time. Defenders always get overlooked here.

Anyway, lest we make this another 'state of English football' thread (it isn't) I'd say in answer to the question, my heart says Teddy Sheringham, my head says Paul Scholes. Maybe Scholes's reluctance to play the superstar game leads him to be overlooked, but look at the contribution he's made to Man Utd over the years. Best touch and control of any British player as well.

Also, maybe the overall standard of football just wasn't as good in the 70s and 80s so the best players looked even better. We weren't saturated with coverage in the same way either, so only the highlights stick. We don't see George Best or Danny Blanchflower churn out mediocre performances against QPR or Leicester.

Aye, I think Scholes is awesome, and massively commendable for the way he's gone about his personal business over the years too. He's a footballer, and nothing else, which is refreshing. I guess Giggs has been too for the last ten years, but there was a bit of a circus around him pre-Beckham.

x-post; yes.

Stan Collymore could've been better than the lot of them if he hadn't gone batshit.

Not denying he had his moment in the sun but that is a veeeeery bold statement.

Recall the last lengthy discussion of Shearer here being pretty vitriolic, but I think he took over the mantle of Lineker post-92 quite successfully all told

The Giggs 'media circus' seems quite quaint now - zomg he's giving it to someone off of Hollyoaks!!!

What about goalkeepers? Spunky Seaman or David James? Struggle to see past that pair. Tim Flowers, Ian Walker, Paul Robinson, can't see it.

Recall the last lengthy discussion of Shearer here being pretty vitriolic, but I think he took over the mantle of Lineker post-92 quite successfully all told

-- DJ Mencap, Friday, 23 May 2008 10:24 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Link

alan shearer - c or d

I seriously think, had Collymore had a better head on his shoulders and been played in an effective way for England, that he could have been fucking phenomenal. Amazing touch, thunderous shot off either foot, good movement, incredibly strong, good passer, excellent control. Made as many as he scored at Liverpool, and he scored a very decent amount.

Shearer was a niggly, vicious cunt, but I don't mean that as a pejorative.

I reckon Giggs is a better than John Barnes.

Got a lot of time for David James, and that's not just because, when he ran off with his childhood sweetheart a few years ago after meeting her again via Friends Reunited, she was working with my girlfriend, and we now occasionally see him around Dawlish.

Much as it pains me to say this, David Seaman is the only player on this list who made a credible claim to being the best in the world in his position at one time. Maybe part of that was English hubris, Peter Schmeichel and a couple of Italians were probably better, also lol Nayim, lol Ronaldinho.

I'd agree re; Seaman. Seems mental that his closest rival for a while was Chris Woods.

In "Calcio", John Foot says that at any given point in the 90s, any of the top ten Italian goalkeepers would have waltzed into the England team.

So TS: David Seaman vs Luca Marchegiani.

Italian goalkeepers in the 90s were only so "great" because they cost so much.

lol £11million for a keeper in 1994, etc.

We're forgetting how good a footballer David Beckham was around 2000. The greatest and most consistent long passer / crosser I've ever seen. He also had that ability and drive to "own" a game ( matched only by Keane and Gerrard )

Saying that, though, my vote would always be with Scholes. He's the only home nations player since Best and Charlton in the same league as Zidane, Platini, Cruyff etc

Now that *is* a bold statement.

Agreed. Scholes is very good, but he's... maybe Baggio level, not Cruyff level.

I would take Baggio over Cruyff to be honest, even from only seeing highlights you can tell that Cruyff went missing a _lot_, plus Baggio looked amazing in much weaker teams (Bologna, Fiorentina, middle-of-the-drought Inter) compared to Johann at best-team-in-Europe Ajax.

I guess I'm cruising on reputation / highlights, and books in picking Cruyff over Baggio. Read the Puskas On Puskas book the other week. Now HE'S a player.

Scholes always seems to be the footballer's favourite footballer, rather than the casual fan's favourite. That's got to count for something.

I'm really having trouble thinking beyond Man Utd for this, that may be harsh on Arsenal and Chelsea but then I like being harsh on Arsenal and Chelsea.

Always going to be down to position played to a large extent as well

That said my choice would still be Paul Aaron Scholes

Arsenal's best Premiership era players have all, bar Wright and Seaman and Campbell, been foreign, haven't they? And while Chelsea have had more key British players, they're grafters and cloggers rather than geniuses.

or Scholesy if you prefer

Andy Sinton.

I'm standing by my extravagant claim:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jw4IhGPOsjg&feature=related

Agree with the opening statement but strongly feel that Tony Adams deserves a mention on the thread.

Yes, but Cruyff never did this, did he?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v236/njsouthall/knobgif.png

I think we're in an era of athletes rather than artists

this is hugely true. scholes is still the best *footballer* by a mile in this current united team, the rest of them have phenomenal physical attributes but really aren't that great with the ball at their feet (maybe ronaldo aside).

and this is why i don't rate giggs as highly as scholes, beckham, sheringham. he's a sprinter, back in the early 90's his pace made him a wonderkid, but his touch has never been that good, his dribbling skills are pretty much non-existent and for a period between 95 and 04 he didn't actually land a cross to a team mate.

someone said you can't argue with medals/trophies, and fair enough. but it seems to me that giggs has spent 13 or 14 years of his top level career underachieveing or coasting.

if you're talking consistency then gary speed has to be worth a lention alright.

yes, a lention

Gianluigi Lention?

We need to poll this motherfucker really.

Giggs went through a phase of always being made the scapegoat when things went wrong for United, he's been inconsistent, often a poor crosser, looked set to be shipped out on two or three occasions. I'd attribute his longevity to a good attitude crossed with moments of magic in important games.

being fair, you couldn't fault his attitude, but then scholes doesn't drop any points there either, and he's actually pretty good at passing/shooting too.

Ryan Giggs vs Lee Sharpe, you mean?

Giggs was great in his time but you look at Ronaldo and it makes Giggs look like Ruel Fox.

(xpost) Darragh, I'd say Giggs is/was pretty good at dribbling as well as being (at one time) a sprinter. I can think of numerous occasions where he's waltzed and shimmied through defences (as opposed to bursting down the wing). If you're looking for someone who was 'just a sprinter' then Lee Sharpe springs to mind.

Ronan - yes, but you could say that about almost anyone.

time + consistency = Giggs

Only two uncapped footballers have ever won Footballer of the Year: Jimmy Adamson and Tony Book. Two of my favourites, certainly.

Morton's uncapped genius Andy Ritchie won Scotland's POTY at least once if my memory serves me correctly. Chucked it when he was about 27 or something but what a talent when he was on his game.

Paul Elliott.

Did Lee Hendrie get capped?

yes according to wikipedia "Hendrie won his first and only international cap on November 18, 1998 against the Czech Republic, almost scoring a goal on his debut."

Worst capped player? Seth Johnson?

"...almost scoring a goal on his debut."

Edited by: LeeHendrieAVFC

Chris Bart-Williams?

Andy Ritchie did indeed win POTY.

xposts

oh god, scotland have HUNDREDS of them.

Worst capped player?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthony_Gardner#International_career

Can of worms

worst consistently capped player of the premier league era must be p neville.

anthony gardner's england cap HAW. we should have sold him the next morning.

that's england caps, obviously.

ireland, there's a list of dozens, mainly consisting of out 'other' centre back beside whichever good one we currently have- babb, breen, o'brien, mcshane.

Man if Venables hadn't begrudgingly capped Matthew Le Tissier a few times we'd have this one sown up

I suspect if he'd signed for a big (apologies to Southampton) club we'd have the answer to the original question.

caught a special on the ESPN classics channel (great little gig that, by the way) on the spurs team in 1982, and jesus should hoddle ever have gotten more caps.

Speaking of valuing athletes over artists...

I always felt 'Sir' Les Ferdinand never got the credit he deserved.

*

now the moral hopes of the entire nation rest solely on paul scholes

you are obsessed! ;D

Wha happen

Little Scholesy will take out an injunction to ban reporting about the time he forgot to pick up the kids.

he secretly owns a maserati with gold plated rims

how many super injunctions does stephen ireland have I wonder

It is illegal to report on the fact that Stephen Ireland is followed everywhere by a troupe of angry skeletal toddlers visible only to him

Not much chat going on about it coming out in the press today.
I guess everyone's sick of talking about it over the last month.
Probably the worst kept secret so far this year.

it's ironic but you're probably right- the only story left in this is the injunction, the welsh fuckfest is sooo over

The Giggs 'media circus' seems quite quaint now - zomg he's giving it to someone off of Hollyoaks!!!

― DJ Mencap, Friday, 23 May 2008 09:25 (3 years ago) Bookmark

Can't keep a`good man down apparently.

Do you think that after all these super-injunctions, he's managed to keep it secret from his wife?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4ojxtr-n8ns

apparently next season Arsene's taking out a superinjunction to prevent Arsenal match reports reaching the papers

he's getting an injunction wrapped around each of van persie's shins

Got to protect the children after all, they are his future (xp)

superinjunction on shooting from more than 2 feet out

So, he's been named in Parliament.

That is literally yesterday's news

Well, I'm out of the country.

Ah! Bet Ryan wishes he was.

news travelling p slow with this ash cloud imo

Apparently Sturridge has gone to Chelsea as well

xpost Tell me about it.

No, really, do.

(Last I heard, the lumps are all big enough to fall to the ground soonish, before any Friday flights back to the UK).

giggs shags; rags bid, haggle with slag

Judge judges such sludge rubbish, yet fudges

Said fudge leaves tweets scot free, scots print shots

Mp: if scots free why not me under pp

Giggs: ah tits

You think that's old news?

George Davis is Innocent! http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-13516591

Balls, no reason for me to dig up that Test Match wicket after all then

Ha, happy memories: When the England Cricket team was told that had happened, I was in the same lift as them.

That's a big lift

It was a big lift, actually.

(OK, there were about five there at the time)

http://i.imgur.com/Peyoo.jpg

glad one paper is prepared to report the important news and doesn't ever employ philanderers or cunts

Seriously, they should just have written "YES, WE'VE BEEN ILLEGALLY READING THIS WOMEN'S TEXT MESSAGES" at the top of the article.

http://i51.tinypic.com/23t2j5d.jpg

paul scholes would never do this.

hard to keep a floozy on the side when you've got to pick up the kids