do you consider yourself a libertarian?

I guess anarchism and libertarianism have a similar philosophical idea in their core, but the conclusions and political actions they've reached from from that have been quite different.

those conclusions and political actions again:
"let's sit this one out (feat.self-regarding commentary)"

i think only quite young and able-bodied people can really sign up for libertarianism.

young, able-bodied and COMIC BOOK GUY

i think only quite young and able-bodied

and rich and privately educated and fucking superior. it's a fucking SCOURGE at cambridge.

that group has quite an amusing wall-posting:

As a true Tory I have little time for Libertarians. Why take something as wonderfully sensible and straightforward as conservatism and make an ideology out of it? The strength of Tories is that we don't need to waste our time with committees and mission statements and all that nonsense. All the same, I still think that as a mostly leftist gathering, someone really ought to tell you all to go to hell.

Go to hell.

You think he's joking?

since libertarians inevitably oppose any effort to interfere with businesses' right to do whatever they want (rarely bothering to distinguish between, say, enron and the mom and pop store down the street), it's hard to see how their high and mighty john stuart mill principles really translate into anything, in practical terms, except "every dog for himself."

libertarians only appose govt. regulation. that doesn't mean individuals or groups cannot interfere, protest, boycott, and expose big business anyway. also why do you mention John Stuart Mill? (or did you mean utilitarianism?). i don't know that libertarianism advocates "every dog for himself" although coming from the right collective action is often demphasized. libertarianism is part of the US social fabric and if you accept that there are libertarians on the left too then the wobblies and people who lived in communes and hunter s thompson and dorothy day are libertarians too.

also i don't think that libertarians deny citizens a right to do things together. maybe you meant they don't want government to make citizens do things together?

by contrast, all libertarians can offer is some dickensian ideal state where every businessman is a benevolent ebenezer scrooge (post-conversion) who takes care of any problems we might have (and hey, if you're not satisfied, you could always just become rich yourself!) libertarians are right about a lot of the problems in america, but they're clueless when it comes to what to do about them.

this is just silly.

i get the sense that a lot of people are taking libertarianism as something like the social darwinist or randian 'survival of the fittest' and assuming that naturally follows from reducing the size of the state.

i like the mark s comment about linguistic communities and message boards. libertarians and anarchists aren't against order as such just power with the former focusing on the state and the latter on capitalism.

well gosh darn if the libertarians haven't gone all out to correct that impression.

xpost

I think Wobblies were more anarchosyndicalists than "libertarians on the left", whatever that means. Like I said, the core philosophy in these two is quite similar, so we have to take practice into account, and in practice anarchists have leaned on the left and libertarians on the right. Also, it seems quite true that libertarians have focused more on opposing the state and defending free enterprise, whereas anarchists on opposing capitalism and defending workers's issues. Have there ever been any self-proclaimed working-class libertarians?

it's a difficult question because the word has been comprehensively taken by the right. its meaning has shifted so far (as with 'conservative' i guess) that using the word just confuses things.

i was thinking though, that it seems to have spread among basically apolitical young people far more than the anti-globalization movement c. 2001 did.

probably because libertarianism is the most anti-political ideology i can imagine.

ooh, interesting footnote from george woodcock's anarchism:

"Sébastien Faure, who founded Le Libertaire in 1895, is often credited with having invented the word libertarian as a convenient synonym for anarchist. However <Joseph> Déjacque's use of the word as early as 1858 suggests it may have had a long currency before Faure adopted it." (p263, Pelican edn, 1963)

Déjacque also ran a magazine called Le Libertaire, in New York (1858-61): he was an upholsterer.

(haha he also FORESAW ILX: "In Déjacque's world of the future, the great metropolises of the 19th century will disappear, and on their sites will rise enormous monumental; meeting halls, called cyclideons, each capable of holding a million people, and conceieved by Déjacque as 'altars of the social cult, anarchic churches of Utopian humanity'. There, in the total liberty of discussion, 'the free and great voice of the public' will be heard...", ibid., p264)

"we have to take practice into account, and in practice anarchists have leaned on the left and libertarians on the right"

anarchists:
http://www.wolfstone.com/images/20010222Twins.jpg

libertarian:
http://farm1.static.flickr.com/27/45017300_07a6caaa47.jpg

i do think people attracted to the libertarian movement are linear thinkers. whereas i am all over the place. ts: hedgehog or fox?

Have there ever been any self-proclaimed working-class libertarians?

Karl Hess, Barry Goldwater's speech writer became a welder after his political fallout w/the Republicans.

From Wikipedia:

The first known use of a term that has been translated as "libertarian," in a political sense, was by anarcho-communist Joseph Déjacque[16] who used the French term "libertaire" in a letter to Pierre-Joseph Proudhon in 1857.[17] The word stems from the French word libertaire (synonymous to "anarchist"), and was used in order to evade the French ban on anarchist publications. Many anarchists still use the term (e.g., terms translatable as "libertarian" are used as a synonym for anarchism in many non-English languages, like French, Italian and so on), and in the English language socialist anarchism and communist anarchism are often referred to as Libertarian socialism or Libertarian communism respectively to distinguish it from authoritarian Marxist varieties of socialism and communism. In the United States, however, Libertarian refers to members of the American Libertarian party, whose politics might be described as classical liberalism. Those who support similar policies but are not members of the Libertarian party are known as libertarians in the United States and much of the English speaking world.

I think the American meaning of libertarianism as an ideology separate from anarchism has become more and more prominent, and hence "libertarian" as a synonym to "anarchist" is losing it's value. At least the Finnish anarchists I know consider "libertarian" more of a swear word than something they'd call themselves.

the key diff between these 19th-century libertaires and the present-day ones seems to be the issue of property

(haha i so don't have time to be looking this up at the moment)

also:
http://images.jupiterimages.com/common/detail/79/83/22668379.jpg

Also, I think these days many non-authoritarian communists call themselves "autonomists" rather than libertarian communists. What's the difference between that and left-wing anarchism, heaven only knows.

yeah i'd never call myself a libertarian either, but people's own labels aren't always very trustworhty.!

the key diff between these 19th-century libertaires and the present-day ones seems to be the issue of property

And this is probably still one of the key differences between anarchists and libertarians today. I know few anarchists who wouldn't find the idea of private property and money problematic.

lots of key diff between european anarchists and USian ones

"Have there ever been any self-proclaimed working-class libertarians?"

Karl Hess, Barry Goldwater's speech writer became a welder after his political fallout w/the Republicans.

-- artdamages, Tuesday, August 14, 2007 1:51 PM (5 hours ago) Bookmark Link

i dunno if this is an actual joke, ie made up, but it's killing me with rofls.

mark has hit the nail on the head. there's this crazy right-wing nz philosopher (ie lecturer in philosophy) who writes for 'the times', and he's all blah blah legalize kiddie porn blah blah no government is best government, but the notion that private property is anything less than divinely ordained never arises. it's like the one single thing in the world that doesn't melt into air.

re Hess: Nope, it's legit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Hess

From a cursory read, Karl Hess sounds like he would have been fun to party with.

I don't think people consider themselves 'Libertarians' because whatever aspects of the core ideology they agree with, very few people can get on board with the purest form of the ideology. The purest form, we all agree, is kind of nuts, but where are these pure Libertarians, and why do people find such joy in railing against them? Aren't there larger groups of idiots that deserve more attention?

not by that logic, no

Well, the core ideal is Libertarianism - anything less is minarchism.

You really think 'purist' Libertarians are few and far between, humansuit? Especially on the Internets?!?

where are these pure Libertarians

my university

why do people find such joy in railing against them?

because i am surrounded by them

Aren't there larger groups of idiots that deserve more attention?

our evangelical fundamentalist christian union is a traditional target

Being a Britishes, you don't know shit about life among the evangelicals, brother.

you wanna bet? these guys are CRAZY, and, worse, they're mostly scientists!

Yes OK I think you have me there Milo. At the same time, I don't think I've ever met a pure Libertarian in my everyday life. I mean, I know of that blue dude, so I know they're out there, but how many I don't know.

As far as Uni Libertarians, yes, I agree. But in my experience that is often due to taking Econ 101, meeting the linear demand and supply curves, and embracing the simplicity. Doesn't that usually dissipate by the second semester?

no, it doesn't, and i'm not just talking economics students here.

That's mighty strange then. Are you in the US or UK? I encountered some free econ types in Scotland, but the overwhelming majority of things I got dragged to were 'Socialist' rallies, and I have to say that I'd identify myself as Libertarian over that if I was forced to.

i'm in the uk
baitin ur libertarianz

but the notion that private property is anything less than divinely ordained never arises. it's like the one single thing in the world that doesn't melt into air.

it's funny, isn't it? it's not really about a radically different kind of non-government so much as shrinking the borders of the monopoly-of-force state down to, like, your yard.

libertarianism is eternally fascinating to me, it never stops pissing me off in one way or another, where tradition bible, blood n soil conservatism, while a much bigger electoral threat, just looks so pathetic and wrong on its face i don't give it much mind.

this is probably still one of the key differences between anarchists and libertarians today. I know few anarchists who wouldn't find the idea of private property and money problematic.

I need to read more of this thread and I can't right now, but I just wanted to note (as a lifelong 40 year old anarchist who has read more theory than is good for me) that I find this to be true for me. And my only really major issue with libertarians (besides their "fuck the common good" privatization bullshit) is what I call the "bootstrap" mentality, a willful disregarding of race/class/gender privilege and advantage.

I do have some common ground w/these folks, especially the Oregon/Pacific NW style... distrust of gov't gun regulation, distrust of newer supposedly "good" laws like hate crime legislation, emphasis on self-sufficiency, quasi-vigilante neighborhood action groups, tolerance for separatists of all stripes, etc.

Plus they are usually fun to party with, like the few Commies I know.

So now is everyone going to rail at Sleeve, or is anarchism somehow less 'kooky' than Libertarianism? Is it because one is 'on the right' and the other 'on the left'?

thanks to your handy "there is no such thing as idiocy" argument, we don't have to -- it will save time

Marky Mark and the Snarky bunch!

For libertarian fun, go dig up Roger Adultery/Manalishi's posts

I'm not sure how much fun that would be.

i think my dad is a libertarian. not in a mean way, exactly, more in a "oh i can't be bothered with politics" throwing hands up at the world thing.

For a good example of modern libertarians out there in american politics, listen to the first hour of Thom Hartmann's radio show. He has a habit of having libertarians/rightwing conservatives on his show daily, and actually trying to debate them on their points.

<i>Have there ever been any self-proclaimed working-class libertarians?</i>

I knew quite a few who posted at the boards at Reason.com, insofar as they were equally concerned with concentrations of corporate power as they were with state power. The bloggers who write as Mona and thoreau, at High Clearing, are sorta kinda close to that. And they're certainly far from anything you'd consider "right-wing."

I suspect that more than a few conservatives gravitate towards libertarianism given the Republican Party's trend towards imperialism and disregard for anything resembling "limited government." So while there aren't that many card-carrying Libertarians, some of its tenets hold appeal to disillusioned conservatives in America and maybe even a few liberals.

I completely agree with that. Indeed, there was some NPR clip I caught in which a guy was discussing his (?) article / book about being a Liberal Libertarian. I can get with that. I don't know what his point was, exactly, but I think if one were to believe that social equality was important but that limited control by government was an avenue towards that, one might call themselves a Liberal Libertarian. Wow, I'm muddled here, but anyway I've heard someone reference something similar to what you're saying.