― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 21:47 (twenty years ago) link
but don't styles develop because a lot of 'given' voices are so similar to one another, naturally? or because what's given can be so transformed by style (for instance it was lee perry that taught bob marley how to sing, though we might now feel or have the impression marley was just singing naturally)not that you necessarily were, but you can't knock style. it's a big reason a lot of people outgrow indie
― duke indie, Sunday, 18 April 2004 21:56 (twenty years ago) link
'Pipe a song about a Lamb!'So I piped with merry cheer.'Piper, pipe that song again.'So I piped: he wept to hear.
'Drop thy pipe, thy happy pipe;Sing thy songs of happy cheer!'So I sung the same again,While he wept with joy to hear.
'Piper, sit thee down and writeIn a book, that all may read.'So he vanished from my sight;And I plucked a hollow reed,
And I made a rural pen,And I stained the water clear,And I wrote my happy songsEvery child may joy to hear.
― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 18 April 2004 21:56 (twenty years ago) link
― Barry Bruner (Barry Bruner), Sunday, 18 April 2004 21:56 (twenty years ago) link
― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:01 (twenty years ago) link
― cws (cws), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:10 (twenty years ago) link
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:22 (twenty years ago) link
― cws (cws), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:23 (twenty years ago) link
― duke song, Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:28 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:30 (twenty years ago) link
Scott, you should right about Michael Franks for the freelance mentalists thing. You might even say I'm requesting that you do so! I'd love to read it.
― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:41 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:42 (twenty years ago) link
― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:43 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:44 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:45 (twenty years ago) link
― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:48 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:49 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:51 (twenty years ago) link
― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:53 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:53 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:55 (twenty years ago) link
Have you ever heard that Canadian band Christmas? I listened to their first record the other night; I think I actually auditioned it because I couldn't remember what they sounded like and I was wondering if they should go on that list. They were kind of bad, actually. I don't think they make the cut. Cool guitar tone the guy had, though.
― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:58 (twenty years ago) link
― Broheems (diamond), Sunday, 18 April 2004 22:59 (twenty years ago) link
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 18 April 2004 23:05 (twenty years ago) link
― David Allen (David Allen), Sunday, 18 April 2004 23:24 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 23:25 (twenty years ago) link
as for actually influential, i didn't notice modern lovers era jonathan richman mentioned yet.
― ddd, Monday, 19 April 2004 02:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Evanston Wade (EWW), Monday, 19 April 2004 02:44 (twenty years ago) link
― duke tisch, Monday, 19 April 2004 02:48 (twenty years ago) link
Yeah, Ian Curtis is much more dramatic. He's not operatic, obviously, but I think his style comes from some kind of Romantic traditions. I thought about Neil Young, but I hesitated to include him (in what is a pretty subjective and flawed classification system) because I don't think there's anything "cool" about his singing. I don't get detachment or irony or anything like that from him. I'd put him more squarely in the naive/primitivist camp.
And Mose Allison is a great call -- maybe as a successor to the Hoagy Carmichael technique discussed above?
(xpost)But was Billie's singing self-conscious? A limited range, yeah, but I guess she's always seemed pretty heart-on-sleeve to me. Maybe I'm hearing her wrong.
― spittle (spittle), Monday, 19 April 2004 02:49 (twenty years ago) link
― Al (sitcom), Monday, 19 April 2004 02:55 (twenty years ago) link
― Broheems (diamond), Monday, 19 April 2004 02:58 (twenty years ago) link
Billie & self-consciousness: I thought about the whole "irony" thing before posting her, but I wonder if its an essential aspect of the indie voice. So much of indie is unbearably earnest...though I'm more than willing to admit I may have missed the memo that gave earnestness solely to emo.
Also, Billie could certainly deliver a knowing wink when a song called for it...is that close enough? ;)
― Evanston Wade (EWW), Monday, 19 April 2004 02:58 (twenty years ago) link
Dave Gilmour's voice (Pink Floyd) is often described as "drab" or "monotone." I don't hear that, but maybe he's an influence, nevertheless
I'm inclined to think that the "indie voice" is not a genuine phenomenon.Instead, what you might call "indie" singing comes from some bigger democratizing principle in modern music. It's okay to be not be that talented,in some respects. Weekend poets, karaoke fans, and other average joeswho would normally remain nonsingers have latched onto this DIY attitudeand stepped up to the mic. I think today you see a laxness (which is reallyjust a diverseness; the dedicated, Singers with a capital S are still out theretoo) in quality control all across the genre board. I think duke sprinkler usedthe word "unashamed."
Of course, I'm sure there ARE plenty of singers who sing "indie" onpurpose. But how many are in truth like Pavement's Steve Malkmus,who has confessed that he sings "indie" because he can't really sing in tune.
― Squirrel_Police (Squirrel_Police), Monday, 19 April 2004 02:59 (twenty years ago) link
The emo voice is the possibly worst thing to happen to music in the past few years, along with the "nasal, whiny pop-punk voice". I'll take the "flat, disaffected indie voice" any day.
― latebloomer (latebloomer), Monday, 19 April 2004 03:04 (twenty years ago) link
― Mark (MarkR), Monday, 19 April 2004 03:15 (twenty years ago) link
― Curt (cgould), Monday, 19 April 2004 03:19 (twenty years ago) link
― duke bleek, Monday, 19 April 2004 04:11 (twenty years ago) link
Oh yeah, and they just couldn't sing.
The evolution of the "Heroin voice" could be traced also, the relaxed, "I am just about to fall head first into my pudding but I must deliver this phrase before the producer will let me do it" voice (See Billie Holliday, Lou Reed, Mazzy Star, SP* etc)
― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 19 April 2004 04:15 (twenty years ago) link
this comment way way upthread confused me. i'm wondering how you think lennon was distanced from either of the two songs you mentioned, or from other songs of that era. "rain" sounds to me like a sincere delivery of a rather straightforward lyric. "norwegian wood" is a slightly more puzzling lyric, but what is it in the vocal that you read as distancing?
i'd argue quite the opposite -- that paul was the one who was distanced from a lot of his beatles material. he was often great, but at his worst, on something like "rocky raccoon," he comes across to me like he thinks his own songs are jokes, and he's just trying to put one over on us.
but i wouldn't put either john or paul into the "flattened cool" category, whatever we're trying to make it mean. they both had considerable vocal gifts, and they used them to full effect most of the time. they were singing!
― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 19 April 2004 04:33 (twenty years ago) link
i do think he's forebear to this kind of thing which i think spittle was getting at, but maybe just in attitude/appearance.
― duke blender, Monday, 19 April 2004 04:44 (twenty years ago) link
― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 19 April 2004 04:51 (twenty years ago) link
Yeah, of course the Beatles were singing. I never meant to imply that anybody wasn't "singing", it's more the how of it. (It's true that several of the people referenced had limited ranges, but that's not exactly a requirement.) I think mid-period-Beatles is when Lennon starts to get arch and disaffected -- it's his moodiest, most mysterious phase (and my favorite Beatles stretch). And I think his singing changed -- partly under Dylan's influence, which he acknowledged, but more generally in what he was conveying with his voice. His sneer on "Rain" is almost punkish ("they might as well be dead"), and "Norwegian Wood" and "Girl" in particular operate from a sort of jaded, knowing vantagepoint -- again, not just in the lyrics but in the vocal approach -- that I think does connect to this other (at that time, emerging) style.
By the way, am I the only one who thinks he burns the house down at the end of "Norwegian Wood"? People always look at me weird when I ask that.
― spittle (spittle), Monday, 19 April 2004 04:58 (twenty years ago) link
but for flat, affectless singing, noodle vague nailed it by bringing up nico.
― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 19 April 2004 05:07 (twenty years ago) link
― fact checking cuz (fcc), Monday, 19 April 2004 05:10 (twenty years ago) link
Magnetic Fields are obviously a motherlode of flattened indie affect.
― spittle (spittle), Monday, 19 April 2004 05:36 (twenty years ago) link
― Orbit (Orbit), Monday, 19 April 2004 05:36 (twenty years ago) link
yes, totally, and what i meant to refer to specifically before. he even put on a few pounds then, right? he got to be a bored 'bad boy', still probably looking for the next inspiration, but:"oh, i guess i write really good songs, guess i'm making history, zzzzzzz"and then yes, orbit, on to heroin eventually.
― duke plane, Monday, 19 April 2004 05:45 (twenty years ago) link