Listened again (radiohead)and this time there was no shift, except maybe at the beginning. I guess I got off-track the first time. Huh. Maybe I'll get to the bottom of it later, I gotta go make dinner.
― B'wana Beast, Sunday, 15 November 2009 04:07 (fourteen years ago) link
Oops, not "The Smartest Monkeys" -- the XTC song I had in mind was (the vastly superior) "Wake Up"
― Paul in Santa Cruz, Sunday, 15 November 2009 04:12 (fourteen years ago) link
Actually, another radiohead example would be "Videotape", from the same album. The plodding piano chords from the entire song turn out to be on the off-beat by the end.
― nearly one-third of a man (Z S), Sunday, 15 November 2009 04:31 (fourteen years ago) link
I have a friend who can't ever hear Devo's "Satisfaction" on the right beat, because of the odd bass drum hit
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8I09xjQgMAI
― gshumway1 (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, 15 November 2009 08:33 (fourteen years ago) link
311 thought they were so fucking clever about this that they named their song "Offbeat Bare Ass"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9G9-pHd9CyQ
― gshumway1 (Whiney G. Weingarten), Sunday, 15 November 2009 08:35 (fourteen years ago) link
I Don't Remember - Peter Gabriel
Certainly the live version does this, can't remember if the studio version does.
― MaresNest, Sunday, 15 November 2009 08:42 (fourteen years ago) link
Timbaland, "Give It To Me"
― cumlord carabinieri (The Reverend), Sunday, 15 November 2009 09:52 (fourteen years ago) link
daftendirekt always throws me
― rent, Sunday, 15 November 2009 10:32 (fourteen years ago) link
Pete Townshend - "Keep on Working" vs. The Kinks - "Set Me Free" - Both songs begin with the same guitar riff, but the downbeats come in at different places so that one riff is actually a kind of inside out version of the other. I knew the Townshend song first, so the Kinks song throws me every time.
― Hideous Lump, Sunday, 15 November 2009 23:34 (fourteen years ago) link
The beginning of "Come on Down to My Boat" by Every Mother's Son.
― timellison, Tuesday, 17 November 2009 15:32 (fourteen years ago) link
Grateful Dead-the Eleven
― Bill Magill, Tuesday, 17 November 2009 20:16 (fourteen years ago) link
Basement Jaxx - Supersonic
― I am flesh and blood. You are software and circuitry. (chap), Tuesday, 17 November 2009 20:18 (fourteen years ago) link
downbeat doesn't drop until 1:50
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrdUsc73baI
― hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Tuesday, 17 November 2009 20:39 (fourteen years ago) link
'rock your world' has always been weird to me, i want to hear the bass line starting on the other side of the phrase (ie on the 3) even though i know that's not right.
― hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Tuesday, 17 November 2009 20:43 (fourteen years ago) link
Oh goodness, the chorus of "Diamond Dogs" switches the kick to an offbeat and it throws everything off in a strange way.
I also used to hear the intro to "Girl U Want" as having the first beat on the third note of the opening riff (as if the *first* note was on 4). When the drums came in it would confound.
― lou reed scott walker monks niagra (chinavision!), Tuesday, 17 November 2009 20:45 (fourteen years ago) link
Musicians, is there a word for this downbeat trickery?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KGcKZ2U8FHs&feature=player_embedded
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 17 November 2009 20:57 (fourteen years ago) link
The into to "I Want To Hold Your Hand" gets me every time. Intellectually I know they're echoing the syncopation of the "I can't hide" part, but that's not how I hear it.
― Thus Sang Freud, Tuesday, 17 November 2009 20:58 (fourteen years ago) link
i don't think so, it's just playing a part that doesn't start on the 1, without any kind of rhythm section context to it.
― hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Tuesday, 17 November 2009 21:16 (fourteen years ago) link
The closest I can get is "pickup note(s)".
― lift this towel, its just a nipple (HI DERE), Tuesday, 17 November 2009 21:17 (fourteen years ago) link
Musicians, you are letting me down. Pro Wrestlers would have named this trick right quick.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 17 November 2009 21:18 (fourteen years ago) link
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pickup_note
also known as "anacrusis"
― lift this towel, its just a nipple (HI DERE), Tuesday, 17 November 2009 21:21 (fourteen years ago) link
But that will just throw you off for less than a bar until you hear that first downbeat. I liked Jordan's explanation about the lack of rhythm section context.
― Meade Lex Louis (James Redd and the Blecchs), Tuesday, 17 November 2009 21:25 (fourteen years ago) link
i think it's called "offbeat bare ass"
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Tuesday, 17 November 2009 21:29 (fourteen years ago) link
One time in 1994 I heard "Sabotage" on the wrong beat right when Ill Communication came out and it was awesome, but that never happened again
― Whiney G. Weingarten, Tuesday, 17 November 2009 21:30 (fourteen years ago) link
" lack of rhythm section context."
the rhythmless intro is different from the riff that follows.
like here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MPkhhLC1tf8
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 17 November 2009 21:44 (fourteen years ago) link
it's the same in that nirvana example you posted
― hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Tuesday, 17 November 2009 21:47 (fourteen years ago) link
no they are differentdoo doo doo dee doo doo doo dee doo dee doo doo dee doo (in intro)versusdoo doo doo dee doo doo doo dee doo dee doo doo dee doo doo (in main)or something like that, might be missing a dee or doo somewhere
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 17 November 2009 21:55 (fourteen years ago) link
You gotta trust me man duck tales is hella math rock.
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 17 November 2009 21:56 (fourteen years ago) link
nah i think you're getting fooled. the riff starts with a pickup note, so the first "doo" is the pickup and the second "doo" is the 1. if you start counting in the right place at the beginning, the riff doesn't change when the bass & drums come in.
― hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Tuesday, 17 November 2009 21:58 (fourteen years ago) link
The Cars' "Just What I Needed" is like a perfect example of this. You almost have no choice but to count it all wrong until the vocal and the hi-hat come in.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hwE0slNd3Y
― Bears Are Alive! (Pancakes Hackman), Tuesday, 17 November 2009 22:20 (fourteen years ago) link
I look forward to the great duck tales debate going for pages and pages!
it starts off:doh doo dee da | doh doo dee | duh da dee da | doo dee doo dee
this repeats as the doooo naaaaa naaa noooo part comes underneath
but when the rhythm track comes in:doh doo dee da | doh doo dee da | duh da dee da | doo dee doo dee
― Philip Nunez, Tuesday, 17 November 2009 22:43 (fourteen years ago) link
i was talking about the nirvana song!
― hey trader joe's! i've got the new steely dan. (Jordan), Tuesday, 17 November 2009 22:44 (fourteen years ago) link
"You Really Got Me" by the Kinks threw me the first time I heard it, but it's such a memorable and ubiquitous tune that I never had the opportunity to enjoy the effect again...try as I might.
I seem to remember writing an analysis essay of a Mozart sonata that REALLY fucked around with this sort of thing: not only did it give a false impression of the time signature, but the key as well (major for minor, or vice-versa), and the resolution was delayed until well into the first bar-proper. Clever bugger, that Mozart. Beethoven messes with the beat at length in many of his sonatas, but I definitely wasn't paying attention in that class.
― The Boxing Pretzel Wizard, Tuesday, 17 November 2009 22:58 (fourteen years ago) link
I'm always thrown by "Walking on the Moon" by the Police in this regard. There's also a bunch of Genesis songs but I cant think of any examples off the top of my head.
― hulk would smash (Trayce), Tuesday, 17 November 2009 23:10 (fourteen years ago) link
"Walking on the Moon" OTM. That song has absolutely one of the most fucked-up drum parts of any song ever.
Syncopation
― Mr. Snrub, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 02:15 (fourteen years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gwbXjHNcwA
― rent, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 03:18 (fourteen years ago) link
'Little Secret' by Passion Pit, just before the second verse
― calstars, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 03:42 (fourteen years ago) link
'I'm Coming Out' by Diana Ross is practically built around this idea
― calstars, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 03:43 (fourteen years ago) link
'Bone Machine' by the Pixies
― calstars, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 03:50 (fourteen years ago) link
― Paul in Santa Cruz, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 03:51 (fourteen years ago) link
This is my favorite element of "Single Ladies (Put a Ring on It)". I can never keep track of the snare drum!
― nicegeoff, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 06:31 (fourteen years ago) link
ahh, I can add one definite example!
"Hands off, she's mine" The Beat.
― Mark G, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 11:06 (fourteen years ago) link
ARGH! I have never heard this song properly because of precisely this issue! This downbeat thing has long been one of my favourite/most infuriating things about music.
I heard 'Dig for Fire' in the pub on Sunday and got to thinking about the trick again.
More please!
― Background Zombie (CharlieNo4), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 11:37 (fourteen years ago) link
Is She's A Woman one of these?
― nate woolls, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 11:43 (fourteen years ago) link
yeah
― Mark G, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 11:56 (fourteen years ago) link
Basement Jaxx's "Same Old Show" - the Selecter "On The Radio" sample is used in such an odd way, that it completely throws me off. I also used to get this a lot with techno/hard trance. There was one Dave Clarke track in particular... doh, no use, can't remember it...
― mike t-diva, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 12:13 (fourteen years ago) link
Does it go "Barooo Ga!"
― Mark G, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 12:18 (fourteen years ago) link
I posted a thread about this sort of thing using Vince Guiraldi's "Linus and Lucy" as an example - when I was a kid I thought the downbeat started an eighth note earlier than it does
― sackful of hollow (Curt1s Stephens), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 12:53 (fourteen years ago) link
Never had a problem with "Walking on the Moon", but "Spirits in the Material World" still trips me up from time to time if I hear it wrong. So much emphasis on the off-beat, kick used as a snare.
Besides "Wake Up", XTC also has "Millions" and probably others I can't recall. They seem like the type to do this sort of thing.
The intro to the Cars' "Since You've Gone" also used to get me, though it's pretty obvious once the kick and snare come in.
― Vinnie, Wednesday, 18 November 2009 15:42 (fourteen years ago) link
― mike t-diva, Wednesday, November 18, 2009 4:13 AM Bookmark
Probably cause it's in 7/8 time but doesn't really draw attention to the time signature.
― nicegeoff, Tuesday, November 17, 2009 10:31 PM Bookmark
co-sign
― steenpunk (The Reverend), Wednesday, 18 November 2009 16:31 (fourteen years ago) link
When the drums come in on this one I'm always like "wait a second...":
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hrWTxRgd4Wk
― Jersey Al (Albert R. Broccoli), Sunday, 29 November 2020 09:24 (three years ago) link
re: "Lost in Music" - great example!also:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U-GcL1Cd5b4
maybe it's because in places it seems like it's a 6/4 measure or the like (extra beats) rather than a normal 4/4.
― Max Florian, Sunday, 29 November 2020 17:01 (three years ago) link
Albert, is that because the opening fill is a pickup (it starts on three)?
― velcro-magnon (Ye Mad Puffin), Sunday, 29 November 2020 17:27 (three years ago) link
re: opening fills that throw you, David Sylvian has got at least two examples ready - maybe a result of editing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IFMa-m-6A3Y
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZjil5x3gaQ
― Max Florian, Sunday, 29 November 2020 17:52 (three years ago) link
i'm still a bit confused about the Valkyries thing?
― Specific Ocean Blue (dog latin), Tuesday, 15 December 2020 12:28 (three years ago) link
oh wait... forget it, i hear it now!
― Specific Ocean Blue (dog latin), Tuesday, 15 December 2020 12:29 (three years ago) link
Intro to SOS by Abba. Becomes apparent after a while that it starts on 2 but it's still confusing and beautiful
Is this song like "SOS" in that way, starting on the 2?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sA4a-zuSnQM
― Josefa, Wednesday, 16 February 2022 23:07 (two years ago) link
almost sounds like the first strum didn't make it into the recording
― Muad'Doob (Moodles), Wednesday, 16 February 2022 23:41 (two years ago) link
Yes! Considered that
― Josefa, Wednesday, 16 February 2022 23:53 (two years ago) link
The intro to SOS feels like it begins on the 2, but if you're going to count straight fours until the vocal comes in right after the 1, then it starts on the 3! Or you could say that the intro drops a beat before the vocal comes in.
― Halfway there but for you, Thursday, 17 February 2022 16:08 (two years ago) link
There is a great Switched on Pop episode about Charlie Puth's "Boy" that talks about its "downbeat deception." Listen to the first 10 minutes of this:
https://switchedonpop.com/episodes/87-the-pure-pop-of-charlie-puth-carly-rae-ft-hanif-abdurraqib
Here's the song:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iILJvqrAQ_w
― Indexed, Thursday, 17 February 2022 17:18 (two years ago) link
That's a good one, although the backbeat coming in helpfully lines it up.
― change display name (Jordan), Thursday, 17 February 2022 17:22 (two years ago) link
Just relistened to that Switched on Pop and if you go to minute 16 they also play a bunch of examples of what they dub downbeat deception:
Ismael Miranda – RecordandoThe Beatles – She’s a WomanSharon Jones & The Dap Kings – Nobody’s BabyThe Cars – Since You’re GoneLudwig van Beethoven – Symphony No 5 in C Minor, I
― Indexed, Thursday, 17 February 2022 17:32 (two years ago) link
Is there a thread for rap songs with raps on the off-beat?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_QcvPwa-l0
― Mr. Snrub, Wednesday, 23 February 2022 11:57 (two years ago) link
Jane Weaver - Electric Mountain
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_lcFq7Rtx0M
― peace, man, Thursday, 24 February 2022 13:33 (two years ago) link
I've always had major trouble hearing where the 1 is on Missy Elliott's "Get Ur Freak On." Intellectually I know it's on the very first kick drum beat, but unless I force myself to count along from that point, I hear the first three counts as "pickup" and hear the 1 as falling on the actual 4 (this is if I'm counting along at the full 178 bpm as opposed to 89 bpm half-time). In other words, I hear the 1 as falling on the 6th note of the iconic tumbi riff.
― J. Sam, Thursday, 24 February 2022 13:56 (two years ago) link
(which also falls on the third kick drum hit)
― J. Sam, Thursday, 24 February 2022 14:13 (two years ago) link