TS: Joni Mitchell - 'Hissing of Summer Lawns' vs 'Hejira'

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Joan Didion's non-fiction is specific and merciless in ways that Joni post-"Blue" never was.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 26 May 2005 17:15 (nineteen years ago) link

Perhaps, but for me Play It As It Lays and The White Album seem to spring from the same aesthetic and worldview as Blue and Court and Spark do.

These two women are so closely linked in my mind that they shall ne'er be separated.

The Mad Puffin, Thursday, 26 May 2005 17:20 (nineteen years ago) link

Alfred, it's "In France They Kiss on Main Street"

Banana Nutrament (ghostface), Thursday, 26 May 2005 17:26 (nineteen years ago) link

"The Jungle Line"'s the best track on "Hissing", let that be said now here

A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 26 May 2005 17:30 (nineteen years ago) link

"Court and Spark" is indeed incredible, but it'd have some work to do (maybe it'll yet do it) to beat either of the threadular recs, between whom I THINK I pick "Hejira", just cos it sounds more like an ALBUM than "Hissing". Joni doesn't lend herself too readily to seperation, really. I succesfully recommended "Hissing" to my recent Joniloving best friend a couple days ago, let's see what she thinks.

A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Thursday, 26 May 2005 17:34 (nineteen years ago) link

Jungle Line seems to always attract very bipolar opinions. I find it OK, but far from the best on Hissing (that would be Edith & Kingpin or maybe Don't Interrupt the Sorrow)

evoke rooms with heavy curtains shielding them from the harsh mid afternoon California sun...

Nice one. That's what I really love about Joni's music. I need to check out Didion's stuff (I only read "Slouching..." so far)

The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Thursday, 26 May 2005 17:36 (nineteen years ago) link

If I recall rightly, Robert Christgau referred to JM once as a "west coast Erica Jong"...

edd s hurt (ddduncan), Thursday, 26 May 2005 17:40 (nineteen years ago) link

joan didion deals in more bodily fluids than joni.

i really like "the jungle line." i don't know about the title track.

i've been listening to a lot of joni lately. i'm venturing, tentatively, into her 80s and 90s stuff. i'm not sure what i think, yet.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 26 May 2005 22:17 (nineteen years ago) link

i sort of redicovered "blue" and "for the roses" this past weekend.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Thursday, 26 May 2005 22:18 (nineteen years ago) link

Best track on Hissing is obv "Shades of Scarlet Conquering", followed closely by "Edith & The Kingpin". The more decadent the better, fools!

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Thursday, 26 May 2005 22:38 (nineteen years ago) link

I have a lot of trouble understanding how anyone could prefer Hissing to Hejira. Blue, yes, even Court & Spark of Ladies of the Canyon. But Hissing? Apart from Jungle Line, which is attractive but cheap and more than a little racist, there is nothing on Hissing that doesn't sound like a leftover from For the Roses or Court & Spark. They're OK, but none of them is better than the equivalent songs from the earlier records. And the whole second half of Hissing is really forgettable (except for Shadows & Light, which is memorable and completely, ponderously, full of shit).

Hejira: Coyote is sensational. Full of the specificity someone above said her post-Blue work lacked (as is Song for Sharon, and Furry). Amelia is one of the prettiest songs she wrote. The whole Jaco emphasis and the thematic consistency make it stand out and give it heft. "Blue Motel Room" > "Centerpiece" as the obligatory faux-jazz blues song. Except for Refuge of the Roads, the lesser songs all have something musically or lyrically to recommend them. The album cover art is 50 times better than the cheesy Hissing cover. Hejira really defined Mitchell's deepening interest in jazz and non-linear forms; it is the critical hinge between her classic period and the rest of her career; it is her Blood on the Tracks.
It just isn't any contest.

Also, Amazon tells us that Hejira is more popular today than Hissing. It tells us that Blue is the most popular of Mitchells original albums, followed by a close grouping of Hejira, Court, and Ladies, all of which have ranks within about 800 places of each other (around #2000). Hissing is next, but is ranked in the 8,000s overall. Obviously a cheap argument, but in this case the public is right.

Vornado, Thursday, 26 May 2005 23:51 (nineteen years ago) link

I'm pretty sure the drums off "Jungle Line" are on "Paul's Boutique"

A Viking of Some Note (Andrew Thames), Friday, 27 May 2005 01:51 (nineteen years ago) link

Hmm, Vornado's post deserves a proper response, which I'll try to write at some point. In the meantime, the Amazon sales ranking argument: puh-lease...
I started this thread already two years ago and I still can't really say which of these two albums I prefer. Hejira is maybe richer and more substantial, but Hissing has an intriguing off-key-ness about it. It talks to me with its tales of (sub)urban ennui.
Both are inseperable though, the frustration of 'Hissing' requiring the escapism of 'Hejira'.

The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Friday, 27 May 2005 06:32 (nineteen years ago) link

Oh and what exactly is racist about 'Jungle Line'? You mean the whole Brooklyn/"it comes from crazy Africa" analogy?

The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Friday, 27 May 2005 11:32 (nineteen years ago) link

Best track on Hissing is obv "Shades of Scarlet Conquering", followed closely by "Edith & The Kingpin". The more decadent the better, fools!

I love the most decadent-sounding tracks best, and the way they're married to lyrics of stasis and boredom - the title track and 'Harry's House/Centrepiece'.

The Lex (The Lex), Friday, 27 May 2005 11:36 (nineteen years ago) link

The release of Don Juan is being tediously delayed in the uk. Im busting to hear it.

Masked Gazza, Friday, 27 May 2005 11:41 (nineteen years ago) link

Was DJRD never released in Europe? I got it on import from Amazon UK for pretty much the same price as a domestic release.
I ordered yesterday that Songs of a Prairie Girl thing and I'm quite looking froward to the "Paprika Plains" reee-mix (less orchestra, more piano apparently)

The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Friday, 27 May 2005 11:44 (nineteen years ago) link

Re: My claim that "The Jungle Line" has a racist element.

To illustrate, I think the following, sung over loops of African drumming with occasional throaty yells, is a somewhat embarassingly Heart of Darkness in its association of Africa with The Primal, The Lawless, The Primitive, etc., in contrast to repressed Civilized white people in New York:

The jungle line, the jungle line
Screaming in a ritual of sound and time
Floating, drifting on the air-conditioned wind
And drooling for a taste of something smuggled in
Pretty women funneled through valves and smoke
Coy and bitchy, wild and fine
And charging elephants and chanting slaving boats
Charging, chanting down the jungle line

Which is not to say I don't respond to it (as I do to Conrad, or to Riefenstahl), or that I don't think it's a pretty good, subtle lyric, especially in the parallels it draws between Henri Rousseau's painting and jazz and (implicitly) Mitchell's own music. And the drumming is very cool, and this was to my knowledge the first significant use of a looped sample in pop music. When it came out, this was my favorite song on Hissing, for sure, although even then I thought it went a couple of clicks beyond good taste. My reference to Riefenstahl above is pertinent; when Hissing first appeared, the exhibition and then publication of Leni Riefenstahl's The People of Kau had made a huge splash and provoked a lot of debate about the representation of Africans in Western art. Whether or not Mitchell was consciously influenced by Riefenstahl when she did "Jungle Line" (maybe so, maybe no), I thought and think that there is a fair amount of Riefenstahl's aesthetic in that song. Which makes me ambivalent -- not condemnatory, ambivalent.

Vornado, Friday, 27 May 2005 12:42 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes, I see what you mean. I understand it more as a painting of the dark erotic jungle of the city, with African drums used as an easy musical signifier.

The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Friday, 27 May 2005 12:57 (nineteen years ago) link

"dark erotic jungle" "African drums used as an easy musical signifier": Exactly. That's the issue. Of course you understand what's going on in the song; it's not subtle at all. Whether that's OK (tasteful, PC, whatever) is subject to debate.

Vornado, Friday, 27 May 2005 14:15 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes, but what Joni is getting at is more the animal wilderness in the urban sprawl, rather than some hypothetical "African-ness". Now, musically, for better or worth, as Western listeners, we associate pounding tribal drums with some faraway jungle land. I'm not sure this has got much to do with Africa per se (as in Eno's notorious "western music needs more African-ness" thingy).
Another aspect is that, while in 2005, the equation tribal drums = jungle is a bit cliched, I think the effect was probably more striking at the time.

The Emancipation of Baaderonixx (KERERU 4 LIFE!) (Fabfunk), Friday, 27 May 2005 14:22 (nineteen years ago) link

See, "The Jungle Line" doesn't even SOUND African to these ears. Half-hearted Burundi drums, some muted chanting? Even if I listen to it with 1974 ears it sounds like a desultory experiment.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Friday, 27 May 2005 14:27 (nineteen years ago) link

i think of the "primitive" meme joni handles in the "jungle line" as more of a literary-style allusion than anything else, i.e. it's placed lightly between quotation marks, i.e. she's not referencing africa so much as a certain western conception of africa. that said i haven't listened too intently to the lyrics, because i'm usually pretty caught up in the electronic sounds and the surpassingly odd melody.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 27 May 2005 14:56 (nineteen years ago) link

I'd sort of taken the same line as Amateurist - after all the album is about western middle class decadence so a direct attempt to evoke primitivenes/rawness would be quite odd... and there is something kinda desultory about the groove, but I think probably deliberately so.

There's a lot of songs on the album that set up an idealisation/reality split, where the music is at least nominally on the side of the idealisation.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Friday, 27 May 2005 15:01 (nineteen years ago) link

i think joni is, if we can suss out her motives to some extent, trying to evoke the same conception of africa/"the primitive" as is evoked in the scenes in antonioni's "eclipse" where monica vitti and her neighbor don african masks and dance around. i.e. the joke is, to some extent and in a slightly scary way, on us--or at least on the western sophisticates.

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 27 May 2005 15:15 (nineteen years ago) link

Good example, Amateurist – except that, like in the case of Joni, I'm not sure what Antonioni's intention was in that admittedly creepy scene (the tone is hard to pin down).

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Friday, 27 May 2005 15:18 (nineteen years ago) link

i'd agree, the precise meanings are impossible to pin down -- but i get the feeling that there's a high degree of selfconsciousness about western suburbanites attitudes toward africa (associated with a certain "primitivist chic") involved . i'm actually more troubled by the antonioni scene than by joni's song, largely because of the different historical moment. (joni made her record by the time that a certain degree of postcolonial selfconsciousness was a basic part of the political outlook of the western liberal intellectual; antonioni made his film at the cusp of the great political/intellectual changes that inspired that selfconsciousness.)

Amateur(ist) (Amateur(ist)), Friday, 27 May 2005 15:25 (nineteen years ago) link

four months pass...
Yes, yes, Hejira and Hissing are greats but so is Dog Eat Dog, which just about everyone seems to dismiss as heavy-handed. Given the current state of the world, I've been listening to it again and find it almost as relevant as it was when first released twenty years ago.

Will Elliott, Tuesday, 18 October 2005 19:11 (eighteen years ago) link

"Fiction" is a great song! And I enjoy the Michael McDonald duet "Good Friends" a lot.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 18 October 2005 20:42 (eighteen years ago) link

I read a recent interview of Neil Tennant in which he said Hejira was his favorite Joni Mitchell album.

Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Tuesday, 18 October 2005 20:47 (eighteen years ago) link

I would love a Neil Tennant invisible jukebox kind of affair.

Tim Finney (Tim Finney), Tuesday, 18 October 2005 21:53 (eighteen years ago) link

"I read a recent interview of Neil Tennant in which he said Hejira was his favorite Joni Mitchell album. "


Hejira is also my favorite. 'Coyote' may be my favorite Joni Mitchell song. Jaco's bassline is something else on that tune.

Earl Nash (earlnash), Tuesday, 18 October 2005 22:51 (eighteen years ago) link

I made a gift of Hissing of Summer Lawns in 1976 to a young Canadian woman I was then ineptly wooing. She thought it was weird. And me. She thought I was weird, too. I wonder what became of that copy of that album.

I took her to a hockey game, too.

Yeah.

Good times.

M. V. (M.V.), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 01:01 (eighteen years ago) link

Hissing is great. I think "The Boho Dance" might be one of the cleverest songs ever. I could never get into Hejira though - it's mostly just the way the record sounds.

Hurting (Hurting), Wednesday, 19 October 2005 02:40 (eighteen years ago) link

two months pass...
I've been rediscovering this past week her latest compilation 'Songs of a Prairie Girl'. It's possibly the best thing to listen to on a late december afternoon. I'm even really enjoying Paprika Plains (reee-mix).

Baaderonixx weaves a daisy chain for... SATAN!! (baaderonixx), Tuesday, 20 December 2005 16:25 (eighteen years ago) link

Is there a theme to that compilation?

I've been listening to Court & Spark most lately, actually. I only pull out Hejira for special occasions, when I really need it.

derrick (derrick), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 01:32 (eighteen years ago) link

I believe the theme of that compilation is "growing up during the Canadian winter" or something.

Baaderonixx weaves a daisy chain for... SATAN!! (baaderonixx), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 10:35 (eighteen years ago) link

I read The Jungle Line as being essentially as song about Rousseau's painting, which was faux-primitivist. To me this means the song sidesteps the "Well, it's cultural tourism, isn't it?" because it's about a certain idea of Africa rather than Africa itself.

Having said that, didn't Joni have some erotic obsession with black men in the 1980s or something?

Don't forget, however, that we're talking about an album which is 30+ years old now. A lot's gone on in that time - and we can't really retrospectively apply the values we have today.

The Hissing Of Summer Lawns is a wonderful album, though. It ended up, along with Saint Etienne's last one, being the soundtrack to Summer 2005 for me. Her evocation of West Coast America contrasted with suburbia in Harry's House is intoxicating. And anyone who's had an affair with a 'free-thinking' bastard will relate directly to Don't Interrupt The Sorrow.

klee (klee), Wednesday, 21 December 2005 10:39 (eighteen years ago) link

three weeks pass...
Great discussion.

Put me down as a huge fan of [i]Hejira[/i] who needs to get [i]Hissing of Summer Lawns[/i] on cd after not having heard it for years. The box set of her 80's Geffen albums is endlessly fascinating. I forgot how good [i]Dog Eat Dog[/i] is. Surely "The Three Great Stimulants" is one of her best late career songs.

William

WB, Saturday, 14 January 2006 16:11 (eighteen years ago) link

"Fiction" is great too. Neat Fairlight samples.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Saturday, 14 January 2006 16:43 (eighteen years ago) link

two weeks pass...
On first listen (to Hissing), I think I prefer it to Hejira, but I still think Court and Spark pwns both (and my preference for Hissing over Hejira is prob. b/c it sounds more like Court).

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 2 February 2006 23:28 (eighteen years ago) link

Actually, what the hell, Geir OTM.

jaymc (jaymc), Thursday, 2 February 2006 23:36 (eighteen years ago) link

The popularity of Court & Spark is one of those times the public was right: it's her biggest and best album.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Thursday, 2 February 2006 23:56 (eighteen years ago) link

And then I perhaps I spoke too soon: just put Hejira on, and it's better than I remembered it.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 3 February 2006 00:07 (eighteen years ago) link

oh come now I think the life-of-release numbers indicates that the public believes, rightly, that Blue reigns supreme - anybody got Soundscan access?

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Friday, 3 February 2006 00:14 (eighteen years ago) link

Stepping in with yet another useless opinion.

I think Hejira has some of the most well-crafted, evocative, etc. etc. etc., lyrics of any record I could name. Hissing of Summer Lawns is elliptical and inscrutable and disillusioned in the best possible way, but her narrative powers were at their absolute peak on Hejira, imho. It's had a huge influence not just on my own writing, but on the way I've processed events in my own life.

And in contrast to Hurting, above, I absolutely love the way it sounds - sparse, wintry, bell-clear. It's a gorgeous, timeless record, one of my top five of all time.

Myke. (Myke Weiskopf), Friday, 3 February 2006 00:16 (eighteen years ago) link

According to the RIAA, Blue is platinum and Court and Spark is double-platinum.

jaymc (jaymc), Friday, 3 February 2006 00:16 (eighteen years ago) link

Back in the day, Court and Spark was a much more commercial record -- actual radio hits and all that. Part of it was that the 2-year gap between Blue and Court and Spark really corresponded to the period when FM, album-oriented radio overtook AM in listeners and commercial importance. But anyway, I am sure Court sold a lot more records within a year of its release than Blue, and it was certainly the high water mark of Mitchell's mass popularity. At this point, 30+ years on -- as my sneered-at Amazon rankings above, since reconfirmed, show -- Blue consistently outsells and outpolls Court.

Vornado, Friday, 3 February 2006 00:42 (eighteen years ago) link

Yeah, it's true that Blue gets all the attention these days. I rarely listen to it: I'm not 18 anymore and all that.

Alfred, Lord Sotosyn (Alfred Soto), Friday, 3 February 2006 01:22 (eighteen years ago) link

Myke utterly OTM.

C&S has pretty great high points (title track! Trouble Child!) but there are some fillers and it somehow lacks the cohesiveness of the two following albums.

Baaderonixx, born again in Xixax (baaderonixx), Friday, 3 February 2006 08:57 (eighteen years ago) link


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