Most shocking Rock & Roll Hall of Fame snubs (according to CNN.com)

but considering all of the critical ink that's been spilled over Joy Division?!?

in the US though?

Oops--make that Beatles for Sale - Revolver.

It just occurs to me that I've been accused on this thread of a) letting other people do my thinking for me, and b) overthinking. Any bids on letting other people do my overthinking for me?

you forget c) being Alice Cooper

http://www.travelgolf.com/blogs/media/alice_cooper.jpg

"I think I'm a peak-value-nestled-into-career-value guy."

So Clemenza, I definitely don't want to put words in your mouth, so just checking: are you basically saying that you think you outgrew Alice Cooper, because even his best stuff was mere music for 12-year-olds, and sensible grownups should be beyond that? Because if so, that's really sad. (I've moved on from some music too, obviously, and sometimes I like music specifically aimed at grown folks a lot. But I can't think of any great music I've ever really outgrown, agewise.)

The things I have outgrown tend to be music for 15-21 year olds. Stuff for 7-12 year olds I like more than ever and stuff for old people is awesome.

I didn't use the word outgrow, although I'll have to think about that--in Alice Cooper's case, it may apply, although it still seems unduly harsh. There's tons of music from '72 that means as much or more to me today than when I loved it at the age of 12; as I've written elsewhere before (many times), I believe that the music that reaches you when you're 12 or 13 makes the deepest impression of all in your life (one of many reasons I love The Virgin Suicides so much). And I still like "School's Out," and I still like "I'm Eighteen," and I still like "Elected"--just not ready to make the leap that any of them rank with "Heroin" or "Cinnamon Girl" and the rest. But...yeah; past a certain age, I guess I did start to think of Alice Cooper's shtick as pretty corny, just as I did Kiss's. (Which doesn't change the fact that I still count seeing Kiss and Blue Oyster Cult in '76 an autobiographical highlight...it's all very complicated, isn't it?)

xp Though come think of it, I don't really get how "Don’t steal, don’t lift/Twenty years of schoolin’/And they put you on the day shift/Look out kid/They keep it all hid" is aimed at somebody very much older than "I got a baby's brain and an old man's heart/Took eighteen years to get this far/Don't always know what I'm talkin' about/Feels like I'm livin' in the middle of doubt," but maybe I'm missing something.

And you can love Alice's songs but scoff at his schtick (same goes for Dylan, Neil, Lou, and the rest really); it's not all that difficult. (I think his music itself got corny at a certain point in his career -- circa Welcome To My Nightmare, to be specific, though he did some great songs later -- but that goes for all those other guys, too.)

Yes...If you're saying my prefence for Dylan/Neil/Stones/Velvets/Pistols over Alice Cooper resides in the fact that their lyrics were aimed at adults and Alice Cooper's at teenagers, that's quite an extrapolation from anything I've written here. I'm pretty sure every Sex Pistols song was aimed at teenagers, not to mention every great Dylan and Stones song from '65/66.

uh no

waht

And just as a very obvious, mundane observation, I think it is more difficult to separate Alice's music from his schtick (or Kiss's, or Lady Gaga's, or anybody else wildly theatrical) than it is to separate Neil Young's songs from his schtick (plaid shirts?).

Roxy Music, Bowie, early Pet Shop Boys = all used schtick, wrote great songs.

I'm really and truly not anti-schtick...there's good schtick and bad (or at least tiresome) schtick. Don Rickles calling David Letterman a hockey puck: good schtick! Late Woody Allen, tiresome schtick. Alice Cooper? Well, I just lost the magic somewhere along the way.

AC's shtick is more reflected in his music than those other folks. There are chunks of Killer, School's Out & Billion Dollar Babies that sound like they're meant to provide background for the stage show, dancing teeth, whatever. They detract, on the whole.

Thank you! (Every 46 posts I issue a personal thank-you to someone who sides with me.)

I think it is more difficult to separate Alice's music from his schtick (or Kiss's, or Lady Gaga's, or anybody else wildly theatrical)

Why is it hard, though? I'm serious. Just don't look at a picture (or think about the stage show) when you're listening to the songs.

Kinda soured on AC, actually, when I saw him open for Heaven and Hell a couple summers ago. Looked tired, and there was a lot of woman-slapping going on in the show. Maybe he was trying to make a larger point. Dylan at least has the courtesy to do it offstage.

I'm channelling "School's Out" right now...trying...trying...just can't do it.

I mean, yeah, the best of the best of AC is really great. I was just saying that the schtick can get in the way of the songs, by lengthening them beyond single-length for instance.

Fwiw, I just wrote this about Gaga as part of a comment on Dave Moore's tumblr two days ago: "I guess it's just bothered me that people (both people who like her and people who don't) seemingly find it so difficult to separate her outward artistic affectations (which I'm still not particularly here or there on, though the 'Bad Romance' video is kind of a trip) from her music." It's honestly not a reaction I relate to. The music is over here; the image is over there. Guess I'm just weird.

I think Lady Gaga's schitck and her music are eisier to separate than Alice and his. I like schitck, on the whole. Rock stars should be rock stars. But they don't need to make side-long suites in tribute to West Side Story, you know?

YES THEY DO

(sorry, I really like West Side Story and think more things should follow its lead)

Which is a good time to mention that I think it works both ways. I finally saw Lady Gaga's "Telephone" video yesterday, and absolutely loved it. It all starts with the song, yes, but in this instance, all the bells and whistles made the song even more exciting. Can I logically explain why Lady Gaga's schtick worked for me in that context while Alice Cooper's doesn't anymore? Well, either it's because her schtick is newer, or else it's something I can't explain.

the fact that you're Alice Cooper.

It's easy for me to separate schtick if you didn't grow up with MTV, as I fortunately did. Madonna fer instance came to me as a radio, not a video personality.

fwiw i saw the Billion Dollar Babies show at Madison Square Garden, like, the day before my Geometry regents. Me & Alice go way back.

I'm pre-MTV too, but even when I heard "School's Out" on the radio in 1973, I'm guessing--I can't be sure here--I was well aware of Alice Cooper's image. And as someone who caught up with Madonna around True Blue (late, I know--blame Husker Du), and was a big fan for at least the next few years, I was cognizant of every "image makeover" as it happened. I didn't dwell on that stuff, but it was there, in the background. I don't really have a point here...

I noticed some Madonna makeovers, didn't notice others, probably could almost never have accurately told you what she looked like at a given moment if you quizzed me. As for "School's Out," I thought of it almost like "Happy Birthday," or "Santa Claus Is Coming To Town" or something. An occasional song. Had nothing to do with this guy called Alice Cooper who I'd no doubt seen some pictures of but never really paid attention to; had to do with all of us kids at Our Lady Of Refuge, and it being June. As far as I could tell, that's how pretty much everybody heard it then. Same goes with "Eighteen," probably, to a certain extent.

Then we went to different schools...my friends and I were very much into the whole nine yards; whether or not Ace was from another planet was a big part of the appeal.

Well, I wasn't a music fan then -- just a baseball fan.

Anyway, weren't you more preoccupied with Aurelio Rodriguez baseball cards at the time anyway!? :)

Yeah. And I was also a dinosaur fan. I thought this one kid John Gallo's T-shirt seemed cool because it said "T. Rex" on it.

1973: a dinosaur fan. 1986: a Dinosaur fan. 2010: neither!

2010: A "D.I.N.O.S.U.R." fan! (Also a Dinosaur L fan, still. I even got 24 --> 24 Music for Christmas; it's great.)

Oops, spelled the Ke$ha song wrong. (Like the Dinosaur L one way better than that boring CD from a couple years ago where Arthur Russell wears a cowboy hat on the cover.)

I'd also like to post a correction: I begin and end the same sentence with "anyway," like I'm Paul McCartney & Wings or something.

One last thought, xhuxk...there's always one last thought. You kind of intimate above that I've committed some unforgivable breach by suggesting I've moved on from/outgrown Alice Cooper ("because if so, that's really sad"). Sincere question: how is that any different from, just to pick some random examples, moving on from/outgrowing Husker Du or the Replacements?

you're Alice Cooper.

― Mr. Que, Wednesday, March 17, 2010 5:29 PM (58 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

clemenza i question your ability to either a) bro down or b) rock out

xp Well, I still like both the Replacements and Husker Du okay (at least up until they started making really dull records). But even when I loved loved loved them, I never thought it was because I was, say, 24 or whatever, and that by the time I was 27 I was just too old. (I said above that I'd moved on from lots of music, though; never denied that.)

I rocked out in 1977, I rocked out again in 1983, then I got tired. I haven't yet bro'd down, but I'm looking for a project this summer, so I may look into it.

I think "outgrow" doesn't just refer to chronological age, though; you can outgrow something emotionally, and--like you, I don't want to put words in your mouth--my guess is that you'd felt, by the late '80s, you'd sort of outgrown a lot of the music you'd championed in the mid '80s.

I think if those '71-73 Alice Cooper studio albums sounded as overdriven and fuzzed-out as that live 1971 Youtube clip I posted above, it would be easier for their appeal to translate to the musical landscape of 2010. I think their impact is muted a bit by "tasteful" production, at least on the clips that I heard.

I don't see how music in 2010 sounds less "tasteful" than music in 1971.

No, no - I'm just saying that nowadays people expect a different, crunchier guitar sound on "heavy metal". In the early-to-mid 70s lots of "heavy metal" still had a fairly clean guitar sound on record. Blue Oyster Cult is another example. When you compare the studio album to a live clip the difference is striking.

xp I mean, I guess there's way more swear words now. And metal got uglier vocals. So there's that. But if anything, I think music nowadays sounds a lot more reined in, less crass, than music did then.

And Clemenza, I just think my tastes changed, as I heard more stuff and had a wider context to put Husker/Replacements/whoever into. I mean, that happens with everybody, if they're paying attention, I would think. No way to avoid it. But maybe I misinterpreted your associating liking Alice Cooper at 12 with being 12 in the first place.

(Okay, just saw o.nate's answer.)

xpost There are a tremendous number of counter-examples to that though, see proto-doom thread-- guitar sounds were made in the early 70s whose heaviness and filthiness are rarely encountered today.