he doesn't like it
― jed_, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:39 (fourteen years ago) link
yea that's pretty much all that makes sense out of all that.
― big (surm), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:39 (fourteen years ago) link
it sounds like all he's saying is "i don't like shock value"
or "i can't see beyond the shock value"
― big (surm), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:43 (fourteen years ago) link
y'all know he says more in the rest of the article, right?
― hobbes, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:43 (fourteen years ago) link
if people ask you things sometimes your answers don't really make much sense or you can't articulate them.
gondry trades in a kind of tweeness on the whole or a cute/surprising effect and, i would guess, doesn't really have an interest in the kind of vulgarity or "shock" that gaga goes for.
― jed_, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:44 (fourteen years ago) link
xp i think he's implying that like manson, gaga tried to be shocking or whatever but the music is boring so no dice
― hobbes, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:45 (fourteen years ago) link
― jed_, Wednesday, March 17, 2010 6:44 PM (12 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
yes, i'm aware of that, thank you for clarifying.
― big (surm), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:45 (fourteen years ago) link
sounds about right to me and that's quite a decent view to hold.
― jed_, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:47 (fourteen years ago) link
xp np
― jed_, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:48 (fourteen years ago) link
i completely understand rejecting the pursuit of shock value, but i think sometimes people get caught up in the public reaction to the point that they reject work based on its reactionary aims as opposed to its aims as a piece of work.
the telephone video isn't bad bc it's shocking, it's bad bc it's unfocused.
― big (surm), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:50 (fourteen years ago) link
also, jed, it's interesting that you take up this argument, given the fact that a lot of the performance art and dance you see could be described as work with a shock value agenda (for ex ann liv young). and i think you've agreed in the past that it's important to have these things on the spectrum, to broaden it at large.
― big (surm), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:54 (fourteen years ago) link
the point being made, I think, is that shock without substance is useless
― smoking cigarette shades? it doesn't even make any sense. (HI DERE), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:55 (fourteen years ago) link
(the argument is happening because no one can agree on what "substance" actually is)
― smoking cigarette shades? it doesn't even make any sense. (HI DERE), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:56 (fourteen years ago) link
xposts but it is vulgar.
re his answers it's probably more like he's confused that someone is asking him why he's not making a lady gaga video (rather than asking him about his actual work) and doesn't really have a firm answer other than that it's not his thing. he's likely never been asked to do one anyway?
― jed_, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:57 (fourteen years ago) link
gondry otm
― no chapo (Lamp), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:58 (fourteen years ago) link
that's true HI DERE.
it's just funny to me. ann liv young is a performance artist who regularly strips naked onstage, sticks guns in her vagina and dryhumps things, yet i distinctly recall you singing her praises, jed. i guess there are a lot of different meanings of "substance"
― big (surm), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 18:59 (fourteen years ago) link
sur, yes, i agree that ann liv uses shock tactics to achieve some of her ends and sometimes her work is bad if that's all there is to it but in her best work there's a transformative aspect that helps it transcend that technique. i don't think that's the end in itself, plus i find her funny. but i'm not really interested in "shocking" work. if it's good work and it uses that then great.
― jed_, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 19:01 (fourteen years ago) link
lady shitshit
― puff puff post (uh oh I'm having a fantasy), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 19:02 (fourteen years ago) link
actually i think ann liv young is the only performer i've seen and liked that is shocking.
― jed_, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 19:04 (fourteen years ago) link
gaydy lala
― no chapo (Lamp), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 19:04 (fourteen years ago) link
i'm not surprised he's irritated though, his work is v. subversive and actually "arty" whilst gaga just throws enough money at the wall and lengthens her videos to obscene lengths in the hope that something sticks. i don't think she's actually mastered the video artform at all yet, contrary to popular hype right now.
― nevermind312, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 19:06 (fourteen years ago) link
― jed_, Wednesday, March 17, 2010 7:04 PM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
what a performer to pick, though. of all people, to me, she seems to be the most obsessed with her audience's reaction. i hesitate to accept the notion that if it makes you uncomfortable, it must be good, which encompasses a lot of her followers.
HI DERE is right, this is a subjective argument. i just don't like to see something discounted purely because it strives to fuck with its audience. there are better reasons. i am actually kind of guilty of this when it comes to ann liv young, insofar i think she pigeonholes herself to some extent.
― big (surm), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 19:10 (fourteen years ago) link
plus i was genuinely shocked by it!
otoh when i read about her or see videos of her work i think it looks crap.
― jed_, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 19:13 (fourteen years ago) link
but the actual shock in "the bagwell in me" is how complex and subtle it is for all its vulgarity.
― jed_, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 19:16 (fourteen years ago) link
also it's pretty inane to say that madonna's videos didn't help her songs. give me a break.
"Live to Tell" is a thorn in that song's side, but that's srsly the only one I can think of, and most of that is bcz it is a movie soundtrack video (clips of Sean Penn walking &driving around in the woods looking like a mouthbreather).
― demonic splendor, demonic majesty (Abbott), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 19:29 (fourteen years ago) link
i don't know that i've seen that one!
also, the parental sort of association of anything perverse or experimental with marilyn manson is kind of funny at this point
― big (surm), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 19:38 (fourteen years ago) link
it's a pretty terrible video and kind of highlights everything wrong with Sean Penn
― smoking cigarette shades? it doesn't even make any sense. (HI DERE), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 19:39 (fourteen years ago) link
I think one of the things that most characterizes lady gaga for me is that there is a broadness and lack of subtlety to almost everything that exists as an outward manifestation of what she actually does, while at the same time the essence of who she is as a celebrity/artist and the effect her performances seem to have on the public is kind of mysterious. Her lyrics, music, dress, stage sets, videos are all taken to a cartoon level of childishness, yet like with madonna there seems to be a lot more going on beneath the somewhat crass surface. I don't think she is a bad influence on children, because I don't think they or anybody could possibly take her storylines literally, but she does make a strong case for it being ok to be weird/different, which has got to be a good thing. I like that she doesn't conform to standard notions of beauty and glamour.
I've noticed that the whole product placement aspect of the telephone video seems to bother people. The "appropriation without alteration" aspect of it is very interesting, though.
at least among the people I know (mostly very casual music listeners), she is seen as a somewhat refreshing change to the cookie-cutter pop/rnb princesses of the last several years.
she does seem to like the idea of poisoning people....
― Dan S, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 19:39 (fourteen years ago) link
I find her refreshing just from the standpoint of seeing someone genuinely capable of singing their songs
― smoking cigarette shades? it doesn't even make any sense. (HI DERE), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 19:41 (fourteen years ago) link
Well the video was boring as hell, but for the fact she wept away all the crucifixes and bangles and jewelry - that whole Madonnamania look - for the sophisticated image in the video, makes it important, marking the first and most important "re-invention" of her career; which though risky moved her star trajectory into the stratosphere.
Gaga needs to take notes on that if she wants serious longevity.
― nevermind312, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 20:09 (fourteen years ago) link
btw guys the Telephone video is great and I'm totally baffled by the idea that it's not. I mean it's fucking funny! What more can one ask for?
― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 21:01 (fourteen years ago) link
if u sit on their ass and tell me u don't love any of madonna's two DECADES' worth of classics, ur just flat-out lying
you really think madonna made "classics" for more than just one full decade??????
― akon/family (Curt1s Stephens), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 21:18 (fourteen years ago) link
Her career is pretty much unblemished from the standpoint of influence and commercial success from 1982 through 2002; it wasn't until American Life that people started giving her the stinkeye
― smoking cigarette shades? it doesn't even make any sense. (HI DERE), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 21:21 (fourteen years ago) link
I may be biased because I never sucked Ray Of Light's dick
― akon/family (Curt1s Stephens), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 21:29 (fourteen years ago) link
does anyone seriously suck ROL's dick these days, anymore tho? - it's flaws have become really apparent with age. Still Erotica alone makes 90s Madonna classic and then there's This Used To Be My Playground, Secret, Take A Bow, I'll Remember, Beautiful Stranger on top + Don't Tell Me, Die Another Day and Hung Up from the 00s. All v. respectable in their own right, for a popstar past their first (unimpeachably classic) decade.
― nevermind312, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 21:41 (fourteen years ago) link
Erotica alone makes 90s Madonna classic
Shhhh... Geir may be watching.
― I just wish he hadn't adopted the "ilxor" moniker (ilxor), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 21:42 (fourteen years ago) link
but yeah just to follow up my previous post: it seems clearer and clearer to me that Gaga's shtick isn't liberation through shock (for despite the pastiche of Weimar decadence in "Bad Romance," it's "Disturbia" that most clearly borrows Manson's drapery) but liberation through unabashed goofiness. So if Beyonce is just at the world's-been-conquered stage in her career where she can just enjoy being goofy because who's going to stop her, Gaga's whole thing is the possibilities of eking out marginal identities and room for personal freedom within the interstices created by drag, costumery, big wigs, Warholery, and basically being the queerest thing on TV in the last decade.
Anyway it seems to strike a chord....can't remember if it was here or in 2009 Trax results thread where I was going on about this, but I think Gaga's appeal at street level has very little to do with anybody thinking her 'art' is particularly sophisticated, but a lot to do with people admiring and envying the amount of FUN she seems to get away with having. It's a different kind of liberationary politics than a lot of people may be ready to get down with, and I'm open to the idea that it's also kind of vacuous and lacking in content or complexity, but I basically appreciate what she's doing.
― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 17 March 2010 22:37 (fourteen years ago) link
i think that's what saves her visual shtick, that ballsy goofiness.
― big (surm), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 22:52 (fourteen years ago) link
she does make u laugh.
― big (surm), Wednesday, 17 March 2010 22:53 (fourteen years ago) link
dont really care bc i kinda hate michel gondry videos tho
― plax (ico), Thursday, 18 March 2010 02:10 (fourteen years ago) link
think Doctor Casino is otm here. I'm not really as interested in what lady gaga is doing as much as I am interested in why she's blowing up/pumping out #1s/is some on some world level event status right now.
― I request "Fireflies" (dyao), Thursday, 18 March 2010 02:14 (fourteen years ago) link
Listening to So Happy I Could Die at least twice a day now :/
― big (surm), Thursday, 18 March 2010 14:12 (fourteen years ago) link
Lady Garbaggio
― Spinspin Sugah, Friday, 19 March 2010 10:08 (fourteen years ago) link
listening to Speechless in the office let me appreciate it more. my coworkers are surprised and pleased to hear it's Gaga. what saves it is her enjoyment in singing it, and the Billy Joel sort of slant to the more obvious Queen angle.
― big (surm), Tuesday, 23 March 2010 15:17 (fourteen years ago) link
This is from the Nicki Minaj thread but I figured I'd shift it over here where it's more on-topic --
tbh minaj has never worn, said or done anything that struck me as obviously gaga-esque or gaga inspired― ronnie james dyao (some dude), Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:29 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalinkmost of it still feels totally wayne-derived or out of the missy/left eye/da brat wacky female rapper playbook― ronnie james dyao (some dude), Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:30 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalinkthe rigid fembot thing reminds me a lot of how gaga poses/acts on stage― J0rdan S., Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:33 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalinkwhen has gaga actually done rigid fembot moves, i can't think of any examples. that seems more the province of beyonce imo.― ronnie james dyao (some dude), Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:36 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalinkmaybe i'm being poisoned by proximity― J0rdan S., Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:39 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalinkalso all the valley girl voices and harajuku girl stuff are clearly gwen stefani, who's really patient zero for a lot of the goofy female star stuff going on in pop the last few yearsxpost― ronnie james dyao (some dude), Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:40 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalinkwhen gaga's on the chartsboy you gon thinkyou gon think she invented quirk― ronnie james dyao (some dude), Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:55 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalinkit's a gagafication, clap, clap bravo― J0rdan S., Wednesday, March 24, 2010 4:02 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban PermalinkActually it raises the question, to what extent has Gaga been influenced by the aforementioned high-profile female rappers of the 90s/00s? Like it seems a pretty reasonable thing to interrogate, esp. re Lil' Kim and Missy, but I haven't run across anyone writing about that. Are people just more comfortable linking her up to Peaches or whatever indie electro type person, or has Gaga herself emphasized other lines of influence? (Or, I guess, is the connection all in my head?)― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:14 AM Bookmark
― ronnie james dyao (some dude), Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:29 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
most of it still feels totally wayne-derived or out of the missy/left eye/da brat wacky female rapper playbook
― ronnie james dyao (some dude), Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:30 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
the rigid fembot thing reminds me a lot of how gaga poses/acts on stage
― J0rdan S., Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:33 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
when has gaga actually done rigid fembot moves, i can't think of any examples. that seems more the province of beyonce imo.
― ronnie james dyao (some dude), Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:36 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
maybe i'm being poisoned by proximity
― J0rdan S., Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:39 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
also all the valley girl voices and harajuku girl stuff are clearly gwen stefani, who's really patient zero for a lot of the goofy female star stuff going on in pop the last few years
xpost
― ronnie james dyao (some dude), Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:40 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
when gaga's on the chartsboy you gon thinkyou gon think she invented quirk
― ronnie james dyao (some dude), Wednesday, March 24, 2010 3:55 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
it's a gagafication, clap, clap bravo
― J0rdan S., Wednesday, March 24, 2010 4:02 AM Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
Actually it raises the question, to what extent has Gaga been influenced by the aforementioned high-profile female rappers of the 90s/00s? Like it seems a pretty reasonable thing to interrogate, esp. re Lil' Kim and Missy, but I haven't run across anyone writing about that. Are people just more comfortable linking her up to Peaches or whatever indie electro type person, or has Gaga herself emphasized other lines of influence? (Or, I guess, is the connection all in my head?)
― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, March 24, 2010 8:14 AM Bookmark
― Doctor Casino, Wednesday, 24 March 2010 12:17 (fourteen years ago) link
i could be wrong, but gaga strikes me as such a pop/theater nerd that she probably never thought much about hip hop or incorporating it into her music until akon signed her -- the wacky 90s videos in mind when she makes her wacky videos are probably bjork, not missy
― ronnie james dyao (some dude), Wednesday, 24 March 2010 13:48 (fourteen years ago) link
like i feel like she's in the same situation coldplay was in a few years ago -- rappers love her and she's just rolling with it, more than the admiration being totally mutual
― ronnie james dyao (some dude), Wednesday, 24 March 2010 13:49 (fourteen years ago) link
Assuming she's that much of a theater nerd, I'd assume equal measures of both.
― ALLAH! *rolls on floor* (HI DERE), Wednesday, 24 March 2010 13:49 (fourteen years ago) link
lady gaga doesn't care about black people
― kingkongvsgodzilla, Wednesday, 24 March 2010 13:53 (fourteen years ago) link
in speechless, her voice seems to be borrowing something from the likes of christina aguilera, combined with an old-timey male vocal effect. every note is huge. the song altogether sounds like splashes of enormity.
― big (surm), Wednesday, 31 March 2010 13:50 (fourteen years ago) link