what is the most masculine genre of music?

haha sorry HI DERE kinda pointed at this idea already, sorry

it's okay, nerdy black dudes gotta stick together

how dya think feminism doesn't generally amount to anti-sexism? What it's generally doing is trying to find some kind of balanced relationship between sexes, either in the boring standard equal rights way, or as a matter of the real recognition of different identities alongside the (male; also white + western + etc.) norm, no?

haha HI FIVE DERE

no, i don't think feminism is primarily about establishing a "balanced" relationship between sexes... any more than the guy who's running second in the race is primarily about "catching up" with the leader. If women were to surpass men in whatever metrics are used to demonstrate their second-class status now, you think the bulk of self-identifying feminists would mind?

I think alot of middle America would think pop country like Toby Keith and stuff is the most masculine. I mean cos metal people wear makeups. And hardcore/techno people are .... well, you can guess what they say. I think in the last decade hip hop and rap has taken its place amongst the children of those people but yeah if you want a mainstream definition of manly music just watch a pickup truck commercial and listen to what it's playing.

dan is it rilly yer birthday happy birthday! if so.

op w/e is on the stereo when im banging yr sister

kerm, I think we're on a pretty dangerous ground if we're positioning feminism in general as a declaration of sexual warfare.

Kerm that's an incredibly short-term (and ridiculously quantitative) way of looking at it. Seriously, a change in our society that took care of all our various cultural roots of sexism would be part of a process on the scale of like centuries, not metrics, and yes, by the end of it today's self-identifying feminists would be long dead, and the people of this vastly improved future would have gradually stopped worrying a ton about the issue.

ask ten women what feminism means and you'll get ten different answers. the gals never know what they want. am i right or am i right?

hell ya, that's why I'm here to tellem what it is.

no, i don't think feminism is primarily about establishing a "balanced" relationship between sexes... any more than the guy who's running second in the race is primarily about "catching up" with the leader. If women were to surpass men in whatever metrics are used to demonstrate their second-class status now, you think the bulk of self-identifying feminists would mind?

― Kerm, Thursday, April 1, 2010 6:05 PM (23 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

thread delivers

please dont , we avoided thread being derailed and trainwrecked all day, dont spoil it now!

almost as o_____O as that fastnbulbous post earlier tbh

thread needs more NYHC vids from youtube to make us laugh

I just don't get why a movement supposedly aimed at *balancing* power relationships between the sexes would call itself that. If your goal truly is *gender equality* why wouldn't you find it inappropriate to call yourself a feminist?

Any ilxors here that were into NYHC or were in a HC band?

ilm doesn't have the energy for a long dumb political debate anymore. don't worry about it. threads don't get derailed anymore. they just start out dumb.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvlE14cM-zk

Any ilxors here that were into NYHC or were in a HC band?

Oh yeah. Saw Sick Of It All, Gorilla Biscuits and Judge at City Gardens in Trenton, NJ in 1988; saw Bold, Killing Time, and tons of other bands at CBGB matinees on Sunday afternoons. Still have Breakdown's 1987 demo in my iPod.

The original Blauner article is here FWIW: http://deeplinking.net/new-york-magazine-hardcore/

I can actually see where some of the kids' criticisms were coming from!

One Comment

1.
Andrés Hoyos
September 7, 2008 at 10:53 pm #

Í’d love to inform everyone about the recent AgnosticFfront activities. They were in Bogotá, Colombia (wich im from) last saturday playing side by side with neo nazi, colombian bands. They seem pretty excited about having nazis as their security.

it strikes me as problematic to really talk about gender without saying "masculinity" is completely artificial and learned and performed like anything else!

i thought that is exactly what i was saying, just with the opposite conclusion. masculinity and patriarchy are equally products of sex, class etc. relations and are as such mutually dependent, that is our construction of masculinity, while obviously not entirely like lets not get hysterical, but i mean it is constructed in such a way as to perpetuate patriarchal and unequal gender relations, in part through the generation and assignment of "masculine qualities" which seem to normalize unequal gender relations. The reason its not such a short jump from masculinity to misogyny is because their histories are so intertwined, one generating and strengthening the other. When we start to talk about masculinity, it is obviously as opposed to femininity because this feels like such an easy binary. You might not think its fair because after all masculinity and misogyny are not the same thing, but one is definitely complicit in the other, so much so that to talk about one means that the other is bound to come up pretty quickly.

(I don't think I disagreed with any of that, and the "you might not think it's fair" bit makes me think you're coming at my point from the wrong direction: it's not about misogyny or what I think is "fair" so much as acknowledging that masculinity is an artificial construct that can be identified and described, and our culture -- people of both sexes -- does a shitload of work policing people into conforming with it, just as it does with women and femininity.)

I think music is a very strange venue where people can dress up like drag queens and be incredibly misogynist, so maybe the opposite can also exist?

^otm

i have a problem with nabz's term "artificial construct". societal constructs aren't unreal. are they? they seem really real to me.

or they become real anyway. just try and not be something after you have been something your whole life. it's hard!

artificial things are real -- put artificial sweetener in your tea, it's still sweet

they're just a little more constructed and less like the natural order of the universe

dint mean you specifically. I mean i feel like masculinity in some pure state is something positive and great and it does feel unfair to practically conflate it with something as ugly as misogyny, so i mean im arguing w. myself more than anyone on that. But I do also think that our conception of what masculinity is, as opposed to femininity, emerges against a background of inequality so the construction of both cant help but depend on the other, meaning that there is no pure state of masculinity, but an accumulation of codes/practices/desires/privileges which have formed as a consequence of inequality as well as aiding to normalise and perpetuate it.

I mean there are probably ways to get around this, and i definitely think that the distinction between libidinal instincts is in some way more conducive to constructing a value system for that kind of distinction because it is harder to break down into a violence>domination>oppression metaphor. I mean I know I've only got like one point and I don't really want to keep banging it into the ground so i mean ill shut up now, but I mean filthy basslines and rooms full of sweaty men tryna get off with each other feels like a much healthier petri dish to grow this out of, largely because the way that women do not enter that particular picture is quite different from for example Prurient's uber-mensch shirtless guy wailing into a feedback loop, where women frequently seem like some absent instigator of violence.

I wonder what that reviewer thinks of those female fronted goth metal bands, of which there is plenty of in Europe (and all sell more records than any death black or doom band does) Nightwish, Epica etc.

thread was doin great til the pubs closed in the UK imo

Metal is a bit sexist to a degree but that original article seems to defeat itself. Wouldn't a bunch of women acting in stereotypical genre roles constitute "sexism" moreso than them being able to hang with the boys?

( ;) )

also it's a lot less sexist now than it was decades ago. agreed on the NYHC

except john im the only 'brit' posting just now and i dont drink nor go out to the pub! ;)

i have a problem with nabz's term "artificial construct". societal constructs aren't unreal. are they? they seem really real to me.

― scott seward, Thursday, April 1, 2010 11:46 PM (Yesterday)

societal construct collect a number of attributes/qualities/attitudes under a large umbrella bracket, the borders of this bracket and what constitutes male and female is a social construct. I mean earlier in the thread didn't you say you were really feminine? But you're a man, so how does that make sense? Unless you were joking at some point and I didn't get it? Maybe?

^ and he's irish

and really needs to go to bed

not the pub?

Wow, my beloved just found this summit of badass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK5ILmQmCIk

Les Outlauxs!

xposts to the "artificial construct" debate, though I'm mostly just rambling:

why is it that artificial/social constructs have such a negative connotation w/in the context of sociology? lines like "gender is a social construct" and "race is a social construct" get trotted out as evidence that gender and race relations are deeply fucked and deeply out of step with the natural order of things. but if our society ever manages to completely redefine gender and race roles so that they have nothing to do with oppression and privilege, won't these new roles be just as artificial and just as constructed as they once were?

it seems like a lot of feminists and anti-racists (including me, a lot of the time) maintain that if only humanity were freed from those pesky rules of social conduct, it would naturally veer toward egalitarianism ...which is a pretty shaky position to hold, seeing as no one has the slightest idea what a "natural," pre-social human condition would look like. it's far safer, imo, to assume that race and gender relations will always be 99% socially constructed no matter how oppressive or enlightened they may become.

If there is such a thing as 'man' and 'woman,' I cannot imagine a woman enjoying Pere Ubu. PS I am well aware of the legend that Linda Thompson told David Thomas she liked his voice, but sometimes people say generous or even impossible things because they are fond of a person.

http://imgur.com/lOT7Z.gif

I love you

I cannot imagine a woman enjoying Pere Ubu.

This is the first statement on the thread that's 100% baffled me.

I cannot imagine a woman enjoying Pere Ubu.

*Looks underneath her laptop* Nope, still no penis there.

xp Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo:

1.My imagination has limits.
2. If you are in fact some sort of dragon I rest my case.
3. This is fun!

chicks like metal.

totes hardcore