what is the most masculine genre of music?

it strikes me as problematic to really talk about gender without saying "masculinity" is completely artificial and learned and performed like anything else!

i thought that is exactly what i was saying, just with the opposite conclusion. masculinity and patriarchy are equally products of sex, class etc. relations and are as such mutually dependent, that is our construction of masculinity, while obviously not entirely like lets not get hysterical, but i mean it is constructed in such a way as to perpetuate patriarchal and unequal gender relations, in part through the generation and assignment of "masculine qualities" which seem to normalize unequal gender relations. The reason its not such a short jump from masculinity to misogyny is because their histories are so intertwined, one generating and strengthening the other. When we start to talk about masculinity, it is obviously as opposed to femininity because this feels like such an easy binary. You might not think its fair because after all masculinity and misogyny are not the same thing, but one is definitely complicit in the other, so much so that to talk about one means that the other is bound to come up pretty quickly.

(I don't think I disagreed with any of that, and the "you might not think it's fair" bit makes me think you're coming at my point from the wrong direction: it's not about misogyny or what I think is "fair" so much as acknowledging that masculinity is an artificial construct that can be identified and described, and our culture -- people of both sexes -- does a shitload of work policing people into conforming with it, just as it does with women and femininity.)

I think music is a very strange venue where people can dress up like drag queens and be incredibly misogynist, so maybe the opposite can also exist?

^otm

i have a problem with nabz's term "artificial construct". societal constructs aren't unreal. are they? they seem really real to me.

or they become real anyway. just try and not be something after you have been something your whole life. it's hard!

artificial things are real -- put artificial sweetener in your tea, it's still sweet

they're just a little more constructed and less like the natural order of the universe

dint mean you specifically. I mean i feel like masculinity in some pure state is something positive and great and it does feel unfair to practically conflate it with something as ugly as misogyny, so i mean im arguing w. myself more than anyone on that. But I do also think that our conception of what masculinity is, as opposed to femininity, emerges against a background of inequality so the construction of both cant help but depend on the other, meaning that there is no pure state of masculinity, but an accumulation of codes/practices/desires/privileges which have formed as a consequence of inequality as well as aiding to normalise and perpetuate it.

I mean there are probably ways to get around this, and i definitely think that the distinction between libidinal instincts is in some way more conducive to constructing a value system for that kind of distinction because it is harder to break down into a violence>domination>oppression metaphor. I mean I know I've only got like one point and I don't really want to keep banging it into the ground so i mean ill shut up now, but I mean filthy basslines and rooms full of sweaty men tryna get off with each other feels like a much healthier petri dish to grow this out of, largely because the way that women do not enter that particular picture is quite different from for example Prurient's uber-mensch shirtless guy wailing into a feedback loop, where women frequently seem like some absent instigator of violence.

I wonder what that reviewer thinks of those female fronted goth metal bands, of which there is plenty of in Europe (and all sell more records than any death black or doom band does) Nightwish, Epica etc.

thread was doin great til the pubs closed in the UK imo

Metal is a bit sexist to a degree but that original article seems to defeat itself. Wouldn't a bunch of women acting in stereotypical genre roles constitute "sexism" moreso than them being able to hang with the boys?

( ;) )

also it's a lot less sexist now than it was decades ago. agreed on the NYHC

except john im the only 'brit' posting just now and i dont drink nor go out to the pub! ;)

i have a problem with nabz's term "artificial construct". societal constructs aren't unreal. are they? they seem really real to me.

― scott seward, Thursday, April 1, 2010 11:46 PM (Yesterday)

societal construct collect a number of attributes/qualities/attitudes under a large umbrella bracket, the borders of this bracket and what constitutes male and female is a social construct. I mean earlier in the thread didn't you say you were really feminine? But you're a man, so how does that make sense? Unless you were joking at some point and I didn't get it? Maybe?

^ and he's irish

and really needs to go to bed

not the pub?

Wow, my beloved just found this summit of badass.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EK5ILmQmCIk

Les Outlauxs!

xposts to the "artificial construct" debate, though I'm mostly just rambling:

why is it that artificial/social constructs have such a negative connotation w/in the context of sociology? lines like "gender is a social construct" and "race is a social construct" get trotted out as evidence that gender and race relations are deeply fucked and deeply out of step with the natural order of things. but if our society ever manages to completely redefine gender and race roles so that they have nothing to do with oppression and privilege, won't these new roles be just as artificial and just as constructed as they once were?

it seems like a lot of feminists and anti-racists (including me, a lot of the time) maintain that if only humanity were freed from those pesky rules of social conduct, it would naturally veer toward egalitarianism ...which is a pretty shaky position to hold, seeing as no one has the slightest idea what a "natural," pre-social human condition would look like. it's far safer, imo, to assume that race and gender relations will always be 99% socially constructed no matter how oppressive or enlightened they may become.

If there is such a thing as 'man' and 'woman,' I cannot imagine a woman enjoying Pere Ubu. PS I am well aware of the legend that Linda Thompson told David Thomas she liked his voice, but sometimes people say generous or even impossible things because they are fond of a person.

http://imgur.com/lOT7Z.gif

I love you

I cannot imagine a woman enjoying Pere Ubu.

This is the first statement on the thread that's 100% baffled me.

I cannot imagine a woman enjoying Pere Ubu.

*Looks underneath her laptop* Nope, still no penis there.

xp Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo:

1.My imagination has limits.
2. If you are in fact some sort of dragon I rest my case.
3. This is fun!

chicks like metal.

totes hardcore

I cannot imagine a woman enjoying Pere Ubu.

Hello. I just registered to tell you that I will never have sex with you.

I cannot imagine a woman enjoying Pere Ubu.

This is the first statement on the thread that's 100% baffled me.

― demonic splendor, demonic majesty (Abbott), Friday, 2 April 2010 03:25 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I cannot imagine a woman enjoying Pere Ubu.

*Looks underneath her laptop* Nope, still no penis there.

― Christine Green Leafy Dragon Indigo, Friday, 2 April 2010 03:31 (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

http://anthemrecordsinc.com/products/B000H4W90I.01._SS500_SCLZZZZZZZ_V41776020_.jpg

Excellent alb by the way, I think I might listen to it now.

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000C0F9H.jpg

while we were on tour in Italy our Italian sound-man taught us a few Italian phrases that are relevant to this thread- a show that is all dudes in the audience with no women is a "foresta di cazzi" (a forest of cocks- like our "sausage party" only more pungent) and, worse, there is an italian phrase which I've only heard, not seen spelled, so forgive the bad transliteration here, but any genre of music which Italians regard as "only of interest to men, repellent to women" is called "scaccia-figa" (loosely translates to "pussy-scraping" music). They seemed to think that technical math-rock and the proggier side of metal and harsh noise was scaccia-figa, but I can say from Baltimore shows at least that I see plenty of women at metal and noise shows. Maybe this is more of an issue in some places than others.

Like running your fingernails along a chalkboard made of pussy. Fuck, that's a harsh image. Thanks, twiceboiled.

yikes

btw I know this is incorrect but someone mentioned Atari Teenage Riot on another thread and I was all YES THEY BELONG HERE

although I guess that isn't really "masculine" music as much as it is "fuck you I am alive" music

while discussing his 90's poll ballot by email, h3lg3son spake of ATR as his own peer group's analogue for The Prodigy, who might themselves be worthy of nomination (quite a few female fans though, SMBU or no)

n.b. neither band was voted for, wd just like to make that clear

http://www.stereokiller.com/images/tsunamifest.jpg

and its at the Polish club so it really will be a sausage fest.

the OG post is really interesting but makes me wonder - why are violence and aggression considered 'masculine' traits

...

isn't jessica harvell from phoenixville? i've actually been there and it is quite the town.

jaymc would know.

the OG post is really interesting but makes me wonder - why are violence and aggression considered 'masculine' traits

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/f/fe/Testosterone.svg/200px-Testosterone.svg.png

why are violence and aggression considered 'masculine' traits

I think being a fuckin' corndog is a more masculine trait.

And it's not like you never see a chick eatin' a corndog.

http://yosoylachamuca.files.wordpress.com/2009/10/corndog.jpg

ya'll are trippin - have you ever considered that your prejudice is just due to the way your conception of gender has been constructed by society

look inside yourself

RELEASE THE KRAKEN

I am absolutely certain that a combination of biological urge and societal artifact are what cause me to view violence and aggression as masculine traits.

Contrary to what has been postulated in outdated studies and by certain sections of the media, aggressive behaviour is not typically seen in hypogonadal men who have their testosterone replaced adequately to the eugonadal/normal range. In fact, aggressive behaviour has been associated with hypogonadism and low testosterone levels and it would seem as though supraphysiological and low levels of testosterone and hypogonadism cause mood disorders and aggressive behaviour, with eugondal/normal testosterone levels being important for mental well-being.