What is BLACK music? What is WHITE music?

Fair enough but ethnicity is a pretty minor factor to me. I don't like the way that line of thought leads you to the 'white people are like THIS, black people like THAT' fallacy.

Saying that there are some generic differences between groups doesn't mean that every member of that group is like THIS. However, we live in a world where ethnic and class differences do matter, even though there are lots of people who transcend those boundaries.

No, no, no -- Spanish people. From Spain. And some Italian people. From Italy.

And as for the electric guitar, I would say that by far the greatest popularizer had nothing to do with race. It wasn't even a person. I would say it was "really small places full of really loud people where it was really hard to hear to band."

VS.

white people making black music
http://hk.yimg.com/hk/providers/boombeat/20021031/eminem.jpg

More like a big band with 20 horns and an acoustic guitar that was impossible to hear.

This is a good point, but I think it's clear that small combos, not big bands (and blues and R&B singles, not big-band ones) were where electric guitar was *popularized.*

Nice guy at the party. Should have worn his scarf more. Died years before the electric guitar was close to popularized.

>Les Paul?

Plugged in first (or second -- does it matter?). Then forgot to turn it up.

Anyway, it had to be legitimized among musicians before it became everybody's favorite instrument.

BLACK guitars vs. WHITE guitars.

Yes.

Can you press these distinctions very far without getting into some sticky shit?

Not usually.

Can boy sings blue the whites?

Yes.

"okay, here's how it works -- if it puts me to sleep, it's folk; if it's played by black guys, it's funk; and if i don't understand it, it's jazz."

It's mad to try to pick apart what types of music are either 'black' or 'white': facets of rap and soul (formerly in the 'black' camp) have been mixed with rock/pop/blah-blah (formerly in the 'white' camp) for ages (even if badly, ie, Limp Bizkit). The benefit nowadays is that facets of both are freely used to give exposure to the widest audience. Otherwise, you would also get into the old argument of who should listen to what.

Pretty damn funny.

A friend of mine told me once that Shellac were 'the whitest band in the world'.
I have no idea what that means.

On the 'worst review for you' thread it's been suggested that Radiohead's music has a lack of black influence.
Huh? Radiohead is (still) largely guitar based, and black people were huge players in popularising the guitar in popular music.

yeah the mind boggles!!! "huh?"!!

-- trife (...), September 19th, 2003.

Well I still have no idea what Shellac being 'white' means. I know the ppl in the band are white, but the music? That's a bunch of soundwaves.

By 'popularising the guitar' I was thinking of the early blues players, I'm fairly sure I'm right that they made it a mainstream popular music instrument in the 20th century.

The people in NE, NWA and Missy are black. But why call the music black?

Trife, by 'black music' do you just mean genres of music where over a certain percentage of the players are black? So, like, basketball is a 'black' sport?

I'm not arguing with you, I want to know something. If it's all so obvious please write me a simple one word definition of black music and the same of white music, thanks.

I don't live in America, perhaps that's the problem, I think maybe in the UK we're not so obsessed with race.

Isn't it more 'segregating music on culture grounds'? There is no black vs white dichotomy. Many other cultures have musics that are abscribed to them. Wait, ALL cultures have musics that are abscribed to them. What is the difference between labeling something as Japanesse or Indian or Gypsy? (not a rhetorical question) Is it because black culture and music is not tied to one particular landmass? When I think of black music, I think of music predominately developed within the communities of the descendants of slaves. It seems like to deny the existence of black music is to deny the existence of black culture.

(As a translation for Brits.)

(Perhaps simplistic, but then you'll get a sense of how fraught and [needlessly?] complicated it is.)

that's cause the man keeps them down

http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B0000009SY.01.LZZZZZZZ.jpg

isn't it just as simple (no it isn't at all but it is most certainly the starting point in an argument like this) as the division of rhythmical and melodical music?

Obviously, Gabba or trance (or to a far lesser degree techno due to origin) is white because its brain-numbingly repetive and monotonous and is based on melodies rather than the intricacies of rhythm. Jungle on the other hand is most obviously black, because it is based on the said rhytmical complexities

The same with punk/metal etc and ska/reggae/ etc. There are many exceptions of course (Bad Brains, white Junglists et al)

This is the same historically, what with classical orchestral music being completely devoid of rhythm and early black American music being rhythmically based. It is impossible and ridiculous to say that this applies concretely, i mean, melody in blues and even in Davis' electro were extremely important factors, but the rhythmical edge is still outstanding in the presence of, say, Kraftwerk's simple syncopation and heavy melodical feeling. In my opinion at least, the usage of technology and influence has nothing to do with whether or not it can be classified as 'black' or 'white' music.
This polarization, like all polarizations, is not absolute. The groundings of whether any given music is black or white can never fully be determined, but there are some that are just too damn obvious, such as the aforementioned examples. In relation to most music, its pretty stupid classifying 'white' of 'black' anyway, unless of course, you feel like laying down some more racial segregation in music partition so as to further bridge the gap.

how can you say black music has no melody? even the blues scale is based on (guess what) a sequence of notes put together to make a melody

and where do latin, arabic and asian musics (all highly rhythmic and melodic) fit into this whole idea?

that's why upthread i said such blatantly stereotypical and stupid things.
b-b-but black music is more rhythmic because black people sit out in the jungle banging on their drums
white music is much better because it's all complex with it's harmony and melody and shit

!!!!!!!!

not having a beat /= not having a rhythm!

Isn't it a valid point to mention that the music which most people assume is 'black music' - and most people think of hip-hop and R&B here - actually contains too many non-black practitioners for that label to make much sense? You can't look at Eminem, Justin, Princess Superstar, J-Lo seriously and say they make black music.

I'm with the Lex here, this comment is the single most stupid thing I've ever seen on ILX.
Have you ever heard _any_ clasical music ever?

I think the fact that Zappa was an Italian-American is very interesting - even more interesting is the fact that he never really referenced it in his work

You'd think, but I quite often whistle thrash metal to myself so if he can hum u some gabba I'll let him off that one.

As for the classical, can anyone identify this from the ryhthm alone?

Da, da, da, daaaa!

Roland Kirk had a theory about jazz & rock music, that jazz was the rhythmic and spiritual musical instincts of African-descended Americans coming into contact with the scales, modes, motifs and whatnot of European classical music, and that rock music was those same emphasis-on-harmony-and-melody instincts of Euro/Anglo-descended Americans integrating these new-to-them rhythmic-to-the-point-of-sexual elements the African-descended folks brought to this continent with them.

I guess what I'm saying is that, although yes the terms are very appropriate in relation to the communities in which the style was discovered, it's not like white/black music styles have grown entirely independent of each other. I think there's been a great deal more cross-cultural influence in music (esp. American music) than most people give credit for.

Da, da, da, daaaa!

Beethoven Symphony #5.

-- Dan Perry (djperr...), September 23rd, 2003.

Where do I send your prize?

(It's a conductor's baton, for dictating the rhythm (etc) made from chocolate)

As for the classical, can anyone identify this from the ryhthm alone?

Da, da, da, daaaa!

Beethoven Symphony #5.

-- Dan Perry (djperr...) (webmail), September 23rd, 2003. (Dan Perry)

Correction Dan, I think you'll find that's a Trio song with an extr Daaa on it - your cd may be jumping, or a Russian may be expressing approval.

People are now back to discussing 'black' music again and still no one has definitively said what it is!

that was in my first post to this thread. I don't think it's a perfect definition, so if you disagree with it or think something needs to be added to it, I'm all ears. (eyes?)

peace

-- nickalicious (nza2342...), September 23rd, 2003.

Which means blues, rock and roll and hip hop aren't black, cause they come froom the USA where black people are a minority?

-- trife (...), September 19th, 2003 4:20 AM. (simon_tr) (link)

several years on this is still the most amusing thing i have ever read on ilx