Rolling 2004 Metal Thread

Yeah, and power/symphonic metal is obviously a different beast altogether.

Here's the track-listing of a tape I made Anthony Miccio a month or two ago:

Side 1

Midnight Sun - Metal Gods
Heavenly - The World Will Be Better
Human Fortress - The Dragon's Lair
Angel Dust - The Human Bondage
Blind Guardian - Battlefield
Alice Cooper - Triggerman
Howling Syn - Black Moon
Hammerfall - Hearts Of Fire
Danzig - Wicked pussycat
Dream Evil - Save Us

Side 2

Dio - Killing The Dragon
Helloween - The Departed (Sun Is Going Down)
Freedom Call - Flying High
Danzig - Kiss The Skull
Dream Evil - Break The Chains
Star One - High Moon
The Kovenant - Star By Star
Witchery - Omens
Katatonia - Ghost Of The Sun
Katatonia - Sleeper

Not all power/symphonic, but all really really catchy!

Midnight Sun are metal with Abba edges.

RE: the kidz and Slipknot-my dad was working for child protective services in upstate new york and he had the same sort of thing to say about that bond between the kidz and Slipknot that John did.

>there was a point in the '80s when metal was part of the pop universe (Poison, Motley Crue, GnR) though this was also the exact point when the word "metal" started to get a little slippery (Venom, Slayer, Celtic Frost: do these bands have anything in common with their hairy contemporaries?).<

Well, Slayer and Poison were both on the *Less Than Zero* soundtrack. And Venom's "Teacher's Pet" is more like Van Halen's "Hot For Teacher" than like anything by, say, Cannibal Corpse or whoever. And I always thought GnR's "My World" sounded like a Celtic Frost song. And Tom G Warrior was a fan of Poison's debut album, not to mention of fan of glam rock (like Roxy Music, for instance, who Celtic Frost covered). And they all had loud guitars. So...yeah. They do.

The worst metal band I've ever heard, in any subgenre, is Wizard.

Also, correct me if I'm wrong (both bands pretty much suck eggs, so it's been a while since I've fact-checked this), but I believe both Slayer and Motley Crue have done a couple songs about the devil.

xpost

Both bands suck eggs?

No, Motley Crue sucks eggs.

Slayer were responsible for such masterpieces as Reign In Blood, Hell Awaits, Divine Intervention, and Show No Mercy.

Slayer had plenty of songs that had "rigid verse-chorus-verse-chorus-bridge-chorus-chorus" structure. Maybe not on something like, say, "Angel of Death". But definitely on something like "War Ensemble".

and, I would agree with Darnielle that bands such as Poison, Motley Crue, and other of that ilk had nothing to do with bands such as Slayer or Celtic Frost or Sodom, either.

Yea, so Motley Crue sang "Shout at the Devil". Even that had glammy touches to it:

"HE'LL BE THE LOVE IN YOUR EYES
HE'LL BE THE BLOOD BETWEEN YOUR THIGHS
AND THEN HAVE YOU CRY FOR MORE"

Hardly the same thing as:

"Waiting the hour destined to die
Here on the table of hell
A figure in white unknown by man
Approaching the altar of death
High priest awaiting dagger in hand
Spilling the pure virgin blood
Satan's slaughter, ceremonial death
Answer his every command"

The first song almost has me think the devil is David Bowie

Slayer simplified things more in their later days, but listen to Hell Awaits--it doesn't have that pop structure at all.

Plus, Slayer usually knew when to throw in an interesting riff fill or change it up a bit. They did grow more commercial and "pop" ish towards the Seasons in the Abyss era, though.

Suffice it to say, does anybody besides me think Seasons in the Abyss is their most overrated (I hate that word, forgive me) album?

Oh, sure, it has some great thrash anthems ("Hallowed Point", "War Ensemble", "Born of Fire"), but christ, "Blood Red" and "Expendable Youth" might as well be the same, boring, Rolling Stones outtake...and even the title track is sort of boring.

"Slayer usually knew when to throw in an interesting riff fill or change it up a bit" = bridge, no?

Seasons of the Abyss wasn't quite up to the gold standard of the previous two, but it was still pretty great. They really seemed to be on an unbelievable roll at the time. I love "Blood Red". One of my favorite tracks on the record.

I love Seasons in the Abyss, but that's just me.

All those bands listed above have a lot of the same influences. Doesn't that give them all something in common.

yea, but in that case, any "fill" or shift in a piece of music is then a "bridge", and then almost any tune, even King Crimson, could fit into the mold you just put forth.

Slayer were at their most templatic on everything Diabolus and beyond, and Seasons.

And oh yeah, how could i forget, last time I checked, the guys in Slayer, Venom, and Celtic Frost were all fairly "hairy" themselves (though their hairlines may well have receded since then.) (But anyway, I'm not arguing, really; define metal however you want to, John. It's no big deal. But I hear as much metal on the radio now as I ever did, whether people who read metal mags call it metal or not. I don't think it ever went away, either. And it seems funny to
Venom fans "won," when Creed have sold so many more records than them. But yeah, I agree nobody calls Creed "metal." And probably hardly anybody called Buck Cherry metal, either. I do understand that. Slayer-type crud won the word useage contest, is I guess your point.) (Though "dark metal," i.e. the Goth-ish stuff from Scandinavia etc, DOES have plenty of ABBAfied pop beauty in its melodies, I think. And people still call THAT stuff metal, I think.)

xposts galore

The members of Poison, Motley Crue, Venom, & Slayer probably ALL wanted to be Kiss when they grew up.

And people still call Metallica metal. And Metallica still get on the radio, right? (Not that I'm saying they SHOULD, anymore.)

While metal was inarguably inspired by some of the aesthetics of glamour rock (look at the pictures of Slayer in the jacket of Show No Mercy, or the stylistic points of the bands), musically speaking, I don't really think I'm going to accept that Sodom and Celtic Frost used the same central bodies of work of influence in their music that Motley crue did. I'm sure all these bands may have shared a few influences, but not the exact same ones.

I mean if you want to nitpick, you can say "well they're all a form of ROCK MUSIC", but other than the stylistic points like the hair and the mascara, musically speaking I wouldn't put them in the same league.

"Living on a Prayer" is hardly "TO MEGA THERION".

Love or hate the Loads, they weren't metal. even when I liked them I admitted that. They were 'hard rock' of sorts.

I'm even hard pressed to call St. Anger metal, other than the title track. It seems more like garage rock.

by stylistic points in that post, I meant physical style like hair and mascara and clothing.

Inarguably, Venom was inspired by the theatrics of rock music, and Slayer was inspired by the look and feel of glam, temporarily, but musically speaking.

that doesn't make them all the same thing anyway, though. A rap artist and a metal artist can both be influenced by Elton John and not sound a damn thing alike.

When Slayer wore make-up, they were trying *to look like Motley Crue*. Also, "Die by the Sword" is basically Scorpions' "Blackout." So I have two points: the distance between Slayer and Motley Crue is about five blocks; and IMHO the things that make one metal band or another "pop" have little to do with song structure.

Hell Awaits is Slayer's answer to Melissa, by the way. I agree it's their creative high point, though not their most proficient moment.

The worst metal band I've ever heard, in any subgenre, is Wizard.

That's the spirit! Keep digging!

>"Living on a Prayer" is hardly "TO MEGA THERION". <

So all metal records must sound exactly the same? Okay, I get it now.

If Metallica AREN'T metal, though, that's pretty funny, I think. (Maybe they'll change their name to Justplainrockica or something.)

I just SAID that Slayer were influenced by glamour rock in their look. Did you miss that?

Sonically speaking, the two bands don't sound alike at all. Motley Crue were 'heavier' than they were later in their early days, but Slayer were a much more extreme group from the getgo, in that they were deathy-thrash in their early days, really gritty.

Song structure itself doesn't play into the differences between metal and pop since metal itself can be somewhat "poppy" in convention, but I wouldn't put Motley Crue and Slayer, given their body of work, in the same league whatsoever.

Note Slayer ditched the makeup and mascara after their first album and moved entirely away from that.

chuck, I'm not sure what your knowledge of metal is, but I think your last post was pretty off the point.

Of COURSE metal doesn't all sound the same. for fuck's sake, why do you think there are so many subgenres? Doom metal, goth metal, thrash metal, death metal, black metal, grindcore, progressive metal, industrial metal, power metal...and even then, there are subgenres of subgenres, like melodic death metal, industrialized thrash.

But I do not consider something like Living on a Prayer to be anything more than a pop song with loud guitars. Which does not necessarily make it metal.

Wow! Poison waited til after their SECOND album to ditch mascara and makeup. So yup, Slayer ARE extreme!!!!!!!

xpost

Yeah, no, they might not sound alike, I was just pointing out that Motley Crue and Slayer and the rest ALL had a great love for Sabbath, Priest, Kiss, etc. They all loved hard rock/metal and that's why they all started hard rock bands. is all i was saying.

chuck, you're really good at finding nuances in posts and ignoring the general thrust of the thread.

If you think Slayer and Poison sound anything alike, I'd get your ears examined. They might share some roots, but they both branched off in completely different directions.

All metal is a form of rock music, but not all rock music is metal, just like all pediatricians are doctors but not all doctors are pediatricians

uh, chuck's knowledge of metal (xpost: and his ability to read critcally) is pretty unimpeachable - we're just doing some semantic play (though I didn't quite know how I was supposed to take define metal however you want to, John. It's no big deal. - does this mean "feel free to be wrong"?) is all. My only point, with which he seems to take issue, is that there are metal tropes/windowdressings that don't in-and-of-themselves make something metal any more than Motley Crue referencing the Devil makes them any more comparable to Robert Johnson.

also "uh" would you please supply some sort of name by which I can address you if we're gonna have a discussion (Enoch?) 'cause beginning a response "uh" is kinda uh y'know (sc. smiley-emoticon)

well I agree with you, seward. I'm going to kind of backtrack a bit because I can't argue Slayer weren't influenced by a lot of 70's rock and a lot of the "glam" scene. I didn't properly think out that first message I wrote to you before I typed it and I dislike what I said.

Slayer wore spandex in their early days, wore mascara and makeup, played classic rock tunes live, and sounded a lot different earlier on.

And I would never argue that they weren't influenced by NWOBHM, because it was a huge influence.

To reclarify my post, I can't argue that many of these groups did not share some or many of the same influences (though the second-wave bands may have been more influenced by the first-wave groups rather than the first wave's influences, if you get my drift), but that that in themself doesn't make them the same entity.

but you weren't arguing that, so...ok :)

Uh, Good point! Here's a recent email from Metal Mike Saunders (the writer who gave the "heavy metal" genre its name) you might enjoy:

>>Just punch up http://www.amazon.com and see what Warrant's fan base thought of DOG EAT DOG in the "buyer's reviews"...that is possibly the best heavy-guitar melodic heavy metal album of its entire generation. close to amazing. seriously. It of course came out it the hellmouth of the explosion of 1992 grunge crap-deluge everywhere, and so got buried; the band's manager died, their headlining tour tanked and was canned halfway through, the band splintered/broke up for a year...etc. There's probably a great unreleased Jani Lane solo album between the various (later) Jabberwocky and Lane-solo stuff that CBS eventually decided not to put out (he initially retained a CBS deal after the band was dropped in the mass purge of nearly all major-label hair metal bands, most of whom obviously deserved to return to the hellhole they came from).

if you are a hard rock/metal fan but don't own those 3rd and 4th Warrant albums DOG EAT DOG and ULTRAPHOBIC, your entire collection should be confiscated and traded in for Hilary Duff DVD's yesterday. I say this as someone who heard and loved it all first-wave heavy metal from ground zero, Sabbath in 1970-71 until "heavy metal" turned to formula crap within about a decade. For Warrant to cut a substantial body of truly great or near-great melodic and heavy melodic-metal during the nadir of idiot clueless poser hair-metal and speedmetal bands, was a remarkable accomplishment. (In baseball, that'd be called the "ballpark factor").<<

xpost

my name is Rob.

I'll admit I kind of jumped into this thread without really getting clearly where both sides were coming from.

The thing I said about chuck was not to imply that he didn't know anything about metal, but to imply that I did not know what he knew about metal.

Here's the thing with Slayer.

They ditched the makeup, mascara, and all that flash, but their music was also less weighty on the first album. It could be considered extreme for the timeframe, and had some dark edges to it, seeming to owe homages to Venom and the like, but it was pretty easy on the ears.

Hell Awaits, which came out not so long after, was a much darker, more extreme beast. It had some touches of what would later be death metal in it, and was much more sinister and dark. Reign in Blood was heavily hardcore influenced as well. They moved farther and farther away from the peers they're being compared with in this thread.

>(though I didn't quite know how I was supposed to take define metal however you want to, John. It's no big deal. - does this mean "feel free to be wrong"?)<

Nah, John, more like "I obviously know there's no objectively right answer to the 'what is heavy metal?' question, but for some reason I still manage to waste lots of time arguing that my own definition is the right one, probably because it's still somewhat fun to do so."

haha cool - sorry for being so defensive, I am having a somewhat stressful day/week/last-ten-months

More than lyrics or image, I think mood defines commercial v. non-commercial metal. Slipknot are probably heavier than Iron Maiden, but their general vibe seems to be jock exuberance (instead of whatever paperback romanticism Maiden delivers these days.) More negative, depressing, or just plain atmospheric bands like Amorphis, My Dying Bride or King Diamond aren't necessarily heavier than Creed, but their music isn't as helpful when it comes to selling beer, cars, and watches.

At the time, you better believe it was time for all-out war on posers, but in retrospect Dokken and Testament are a close call.

Anyway, Slipknot have taken over. Their shows are much more violent, anarchic fun than Nile or Iced Earth, believe that. Hating sort of makes you a fogey, and we all do so I guess we all are. Fine.

I can't imagine Slipknot shows being more entertaining than Nile. I've seen Nile live, and they slayed.

If I wanted to see a bunch of people jumping around in clown suits I'd go to Cirque de Soleil

ok, I'm not really interested in categorizing metal much further because I find it rather unimportant, unless the category refers to the overall quality. As chuck said, its rather objective.

so, uhm...WHO ELSE GOT THE NEW SUFFOCATION

I do & I just listened to it & it's all right, really head-nodding at times but then I listened to the Anata album again & that thing gets better, I think I said it upthread, every time I listen to it - if the production were a little less boring/obvious, I'd be hauling out the kit-bag fulla superlatives on it

The Suffocation is good, but after about three songs the adrenalin rush recedes and it turns into a workshop for listening to death metal. The technique is dizzying, but not so dramatic.

Got a Marduk DVD today -- finally get to glimpse what the Pole police were so stuck up about.

>their general vibe seems to be jock exuberance

Um, no. And Ian, you're way smarter than that. Don't buy into the "Slipknot sell too many records to mean it" bullshit.

>I've seen Nile live, and they slayed.

You're one of those guys who stands at the edge of the moshpit with his arms folded, scowling, aren't you? Go see Slipknot. They're one of the best live acts around. Nile suck live. I saw them a couple of years ago, and they were the worst band on the bill. (Their albums bore the crap out of me, too; that's probably got something to do with my opinion on the matter.)

I'm very bored with the new Suffocation. I'd rather listen to the new Death Angel. I'm all about the 80s retro-thrash lately...Death Angel, Exodus, Destruction...

Phil while I am with you on the defending-Slipknot tip, I gotta take exception to your dismissal of us guys who prefer to stand on the edge of the moshpit with our arms folded while we get our scowl on

Yea, god forbid somebody actually pay money to go to a concert to do something besides get violent and go apeshit on people in a moshpit.

The music is secondary, right?

Nile were amazing live, not to mention tight, when I saw them. I don't give two shits what the hell the knuckledragging Slipknot fans do in a moshpit.

You all are nuts on the new Suffocation. It isn't Pierced from Within, but it's terrific. It still has the same Suffo vibe.

besides, go to a Dillinger Escape Plan show and see a pit that Slipknot fans would run screaming from

"Um, no. And Ian, you're way smarter than that. Don't buy into the "Slipknot sell too many records to mean it" bullshit."

If I were Slipknot, I'd be rushing to admit I was kidding the whole time, due to just how bad most of their shit is.

Has anybody here seen Kataklysm? I'm pondering spending next Sunday night in a smell little hellhole checking them out.

smelly, i meant ...

Come on, surely someone has seen Kataklysm in concert ... or not. Maybe I'll skip it and go see All That Remains instead. And maybe even hang around and catch Prong headlining.

I've seen Kataklysm in 1998, with Vader, Monstrosity & Fleshcrawl. It was very good, but that was a while ago...