White musicians and "artistic" use of the N-word: A Discussion and Social History

Patti probably doesn't realise that if the song didn't have that one word, i'd probably put it into every dj set i ever play. The FOOL.

I really love the Stones song "Sweet Black Angel" but I find the lyrical content a little bit unsettling.

I've probably told this story before but I was raised in part by a far-left guy who instilled in me, early on, an absolute horror of racist language. (This had its pluses and minuses, since he was also a guy who was pretty into beating women & children for perceived wrongs, so if he thought you'd said something you actually hadn't said, there wouldn't be any chance to clarify the matter.) What's more, the school I went to was a super-sensitive 70s Cali school where we talked about the evils of racism (and the merits of environmentalism) at least as much as we talked about math. (Practically everybody from my school sucks at math.) So OK, 11-year-old me hears Patti Smith doin "Because the Night" and thinks it's awesome so he writes to the Patti Smith fan club to say "your record kicks ass" and they send out the newsletter. Guess which song is in all caps on the front of the newsletter? Guess how able to parse any nuance at all I am, in light of all that Bad Word? Guess which 11 year old freaks completely out because he thinks his approval of "Because the Night" means he's one of these horrible white people who'd say that?

in fairness to 11-year-old you, your approval of "Because the Night" was actually tacit approval of that other song due to the magical transitive property known as "ppl taking approval for one thing and applying it to something you actually find super repellent"; this is why I try as hard as I can to avoid supporting artists who do/say shit I find violently offensive, regardless of how much I like other things they've done

I feel like most uses of this wind up falling into one of two camps:

(a) People who are trying to make an artistic point, and for some reason believe their (often stupid) point is so important that it justifies toying with something huge and important in other people's lives. (The most acceptable example of this I can think of is the Lennon/Ono, because the comparison is non-stupid and the point has some weight.)

(b) People who want to be antisocial. And to be honest I think there's often a smooth bleed over from "edgy" punk use of the word, to the kind of misanthropic metal/punk attitudes that flirt with Nazi/white-power shit, to some actual Nazi punk and metal. Sometimes the malice consists of not giving a shit about this stuff as a form of hip misanthropy or cynicism. (But it's not misanthropy; racially specific misanthropy is just known as "racism.")

^^ Interviews with musicians about their use of the word often seem to blur these two things in comically stupid ways.

I'm not sure I'll ever understand why a lot of white people are weird about whether or not they get to use this word. It strikes me as an incredibly easy word to not-use. Like, harder to use than otherwise.

I also kind of accept that its status was just different in the past -- e.g., the 70s, when it was still enough in common circulation that people might feel like they could redirect it. (I mean, as of the late 70s you could hear it on television, in certain circumstances.) So I guess personally it's less annoying to me in that frame.

in fairness to smith though, she has handled marginality and appropriation in more sensitive ways for eg. her cover of don't smoke in bed, her clumsiness with race shouldn't be confused with actual racism

One big piece of stupidity and blindness in both camps is just ... people who have the luxury of thinking about race/blackness/actual-black-people as some kind of totally abstract concept they can be artistic and provocative about

xpost -- between "Rock'n'Roll etc." and "Radio Ethiopia" I always feel like Smith is designed to mess with me in particular

haha!

(I mean not me in particular, but you know what I mean)

I don't think I even knew "Radio Ethiopia" existed

I'm a big fall fan but the "where are the obligatory etc" line always stuck in my craw

mark e smith does have some great lyrics on race though, like in "english scheme":

condescends to black men
very nice to them

the singsong way he delivers the line is both funny and totally nails a certain genteel racism which isn't just for britishers

I don't think I even knew "Radio Ethiopia" existed

her best album!

I felt like her first record had a lot of awkward race stuff on it too. I haven't listened to it in years, but that was my impression at the time.

should we talk about this frogs album

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racially_Yours

that shit pissed me off so bad, got into fights with friends about it

I thought the Elvis Costello mention referred to the incident when he (allegedly) (drunkenly) applied the "n" to Ray Charles/sorta disqualifies him, no?

― lifetime supply of boat shoes (m coleman), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:02 AM (41 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

nah, the so-called 'Columbia incident' happened on the tour in support of the album "Oliver's Army" is on, a few months after the single's release. the 33 1/3 book on Armed Forces gives a lot of detail/context/analysis about the incident and the lyric.

I think for a lot of contemporary 'enlightened' white people there's a don't-touch-the-hot-stove pull in saying the N word. you become an adult, you get to say all the swear words you want, you're so open minded, there are no taboos, but wait, what's this? there's still a word you're not allowed to say? even if you're soooo not racist at all!!?!? even in the name of art!?!? it can't be!!!!

xpost
is that the same incident where Elvis caught an eye jammy from the female bassist for Stephen Stills Band at a hotel bar?

she was a singer not a bassist but yeah

I'm not sure I'll ever understand why a lot of white people are weird about whether or not they get to use this word. It strikes me as an incredibly easy word to not-use. Like, harder to use than otherwise.

totally, but at the same time there is the frustration about how prevalent the word is so as well as the obv shock factor there's the basic principle of being against the idea that some words must never be used however 'good' intentions may be (intensified because no other word is as taboo). there are some absurd/potentially amusing/potentially offensive effects too e.g. i did Gangsta's Paradise at karaoke once and i didn't say it but now i can't actually remember if it was displayed on the screen or not!

i think it must've been on the screen because otherwise i wouldn't have realised/remembered it was and having to think 'ha ha this was a stupid idea' (actually i thought that about 10 seconds in iirc)

I don't buy many of the justifications of the country teasers' shit but I like their music

the only reason I keep bringing them up btw is this kind of shit is like a quarter to a half of their shtick

totally, but at the same time there is the frustration about how prevalent the word i

what? only amongst the daily mail commentariat surely

p. sure they use the speaking thru characters justification but

i find nothing offensive or illogical about saying that some people are able to say certain words and others aren't

good luck with that

why don't we have a white history month

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/edwardiii/beastie_boys_apollo.jpg

stupid jews

totally, but at the same time there is the frustration about how prevalent the word i

what? only amongst the daily mail commentariat surely

― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:15 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this post is so british that it made my mouth taste like prawn crisps

I don't think I even knew "Radio Ethiopia" existed

her best album!

― get your bucket of free wings (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:02 PM (19 minut

ok now i'm offended

AC/DC-Kicked in the Teeth Again. I think Bon drops an "N-bomb" in the first verse.

mark e smith does have some great lyrics on race though, like in "english scheme"

"where are the obligatory niggers" vs. "Jew on a motorbike!"

have read numerous well reasoned interpretations of the former, never seen any defenses/explanations of the latter. m.e. can be confusing.

"I'm not sure I'll ever understand why a lot of white people are weird about whether or not they get to use this word. It strikes me as an incredibly easy word to not-use. Like, harder to use than otherwise."

white people do get to use this word -- the angst comes from getting called out on it when it is "OK" for black people to use it. white people should just call out more black people on it, especially if they are the primary audience of the product with the offending words.

being legitimately crazy = a decent excuse, maybe

xp

NEVER FORGET:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6D5xpCgETk

re: patti: rock n roll nigger is like so embarrassing, ugh it makes me puke just as a song

white ppl just need to accept that it's not ok for you to say it but it is ok for black ppl to say it, but even if its not ok for black ppl to say it you really shouldn't get involved in a discussion with a black person about whether its okay for them to say it or not. that's the rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeEx18X6Y2A

Weren't we specifically not supposed to bring up DAC?

Answer:

White musicians and "artistic" use of the N-word: A Discussion and Social History

david allen coe is the third rail of american politics

well so much for giving you the benefit of the doubt

white ppl just need to accept that it's not ok for you to say it but it is ok for black ppl to say it, but even if its not ok for black ppl to say it you really shouldn't get involved in a discussion with a black person about whether its okay for them to say it or not. that's the rules.

― m@tt h (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:27 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

EXACTLY. i don't know why any white person would take issue with this, unless they're just a dick

newsflash: most ppl are dicks

I mean, it's a facile point but also undeniably true

^^^can't be said enough, really

i'm out of my depth on this discussion, its not intellectually elegant or anything, its just more a life pro tip for myself.

(tho sorry if i offended dan, see even posting in this thread violates the rule, and i'm sinking already)

in general I don't like when white ppl drop n-bombs, but you can't keep artists from using certain words.

I do find it odd that the least offensive example in this thread so far is "holiday in cambodia", mostly for the reasons dan points out. I guess "bragging that you know how the junkies feel cold" or any number of less offensive variations could work, but it comes off as savage satirical indictment rather than a lame attempt at being shocking. also it doesn't have the "hey I'm saying THAT WORD" space cleared around it, the delivery is off-hand, it's placed so well in the lyric.