White musicians and "artistic" use of the N-word: A Discussion and Social History

in fairness to smith though, she has handled marginality and appropriation in more sensitive ways for eg. her cover of don't smoke in bed, her clumsiness with race shouldn't be confused with actual racism

One big piece of stupidity and blindness in both camps is just ... people who have the luxury of thinking about race/blackness/actual-black-people as some kind of totally abstract concept they can be artistic and provocative about

xpost -- between "Rock'n'Roll etc." and "Radio Ethiopia" I always feel like Smith is designed to mess with me in particular

haha!

(I mean not me in particular, but you know what I mean)

I don't think I even knew "Radio Ethiopia" existed

I'm a big fall fan but the "where are the obligatory etc" line always stuck in my craw

mark e smith does have some great lyrics on race though, like in "english scheme":

condescends to black men
very nice to them

the singsong way he delivers the line is both funny and totally nails a certain genteel racism which isn't just for britishers

I don't think I even knew "Radio Ethiopia" existed

her best album!

I felt like her first record had a lot of awkward race stuff on it too. I haven't listened to it in years, but that was my impression at the time.

should we talk about this frogs album

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racially_Yours

that shit pissed me off so bad, got into fights with friends about it

I thought the Elvis Costello mention referred to the incident when he (allegedly) (drunkenly) applied the "n" to Ray Charles/sorta disqualifies him, no?

― lifetime supply of boat shoes (m coleman), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:02 AM (41 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

nah, the so-called 'Columbia incident' happened on the tour in support of the album "Oliver's Army" is on, a few months after the single's release. the 33 1/3 book on Armed Forces gives a lot of detail/context/analysis about the incident and the lyric.

I think for a lot of contemporary 'enlightened' white people there's a don't-touch-the-hot-stove pull in saying the N word. you become an adult, you get to say all the swear words you want, you're so open minded, there are no taboos, but wait, what's this? there's still a word you're not allowed to say? even if you're soooo not racist at all!!?!? even in the name of art!?!? it can't be!!!!

xpost
is that the same incident where Elvis caught an eye jammy from the female bassist for Stephen Stills Band at a hotel bar?

she was a singer not a bassist but yeah

I'm not sure I'll ever understand why a lot of white people are weird about whether or not they get to use this word. It strikes me as an incredibly easy word to not-use. Like, harder to use than otherwise.

totally, but at the same time there is the frustration about how prevalent the word is so as well as the obv shock factor there's the basic principle of being against the idea that some words must never be used however 'good' intentions may be (intensified because no other word is as taboo). there are some absurd/potentially amusing/potentially offensive effects too e.g. i did Gangsta's Paradise at karaoke once and i didn't say it but now i can't actually remember if it was displayed on the screen or not!

i think it must've been on the screen because otherwise i wouldn't have realised/remembered it was and having to think 'ha ha this was a stupid idea' (actually i thought that about 10 seconds in iirc)

I don't buy many of the justifications of the country teasers' shit but I like their music

the only reason I keep bringing them up btw is this kind of shit is like a quarter to a half of their shtick

totally, but at the same time there is the frustration about how prevalent the word i

what? only amongst the daily mail commentariat surely

p. sure they use the speaking thru characters justification but

i find nothing offensive or illogical about saying that some people are able to say certain words and others aren't

good luck with that

why don't we have a white history month

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y176/edwardiii/beastie_boys_apollo.jpg

stupid jews

totally, but at the same time there is the frustration about how prevalent the word i

what? only amongst the daily mail commentariat surely

― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:15 AM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this post is so british that it made my mouth taste like prawn crisps

I don't think I even knew "Radio Ethiopia" existed

her best album!

― get your bucket of free wings (underrated aerosmith albums I have loved), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:02 PM (19 minut

ok now i'm offended

AC/DC-Kicked in the Teeth Again. I think Bon drops an "N-bomb" in the first verse.

mark e smith does have some great lyrics on race though, like in "english scheme"

"where are the obligatory niggers" vs. "Jew on a motorbike!"

have read numerous well reasoned interpretations of the former, never seen any defenses/explanations of the latter. m.e. can be confusing.

"I'm not sure I'll ever understand why a lot of white people are weird about whether or not they get to use this word. It strikes me as an incredibly easy word to not-use. Like, harder to use than otherwise."

white people do get to use this word -- the angst comes from getting called out on it when it is "OK" for black people to use it. white people should just call out more black people on it, especially if they are the primary audience of the product with the offending words.

being legitimately crazy = a decent excuse, maybe

xp

NEVER FORGET:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K6D5xpCgETk

re: patti: rock n roll nigger is like so embarrassing, ugh it makes me puke just as a song

white ppl just need to accept that it's not ok for you to say it but it is ok for black ppl to say it, but even if its not ok for black ppl to say it you really shouldn't get involved in a discussion with a black person about whether its okay for them to say it or not. that's the rules.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TeEx18X6Y2A

Weren't we specifically not supposed to bring up DAC?

Answer:

White musicians and "artistic" use of the N-word: A Discussion and Social History

david allen coe is the third rail of american politics

well so much for giving you the benefit of the doubt

white ppl just need to accept that it's not ok for you to say it but it is ok for black ppl to say it, but even if its not ok for black ppl to say it you really shouldn't get involved in a discussion with a black person about whether its okay for them to say it or not. that's the rules.

― m@tt h (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 4:27 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

EXACTLY. i don't know why any white person would take issue with this, unless they're just a dick

newsflash: most ppl are dicks

I mean, it's a facile point but also undeniably true

^^^can't be said enough, really

i'm out of my depth on this discussion, its not intellectually elegant or anything, its just more a life pro tip for myself.

(tho sorry if i offended dan, see even posting in this thread violates the rule, and i'm sinking already)

in general I don't like when white ppl drop n-bombs, but you can't keep artists from using certain words.

I do find it odd that the least offensive example in this thread so far is "holiday in cambodia", mostly for the reasons dan points out. I guess "bragging that you know how the junkies feel cold" or any number of less offensive variations could work, but it comes off as savage satirical indictment rather than a lame attempt at being shocking. also it doesn't have the "hey I'm saying THAT WORD" space cleared around it, the delivery is off-hand, it's placed so well in the lyric.

there's nothing wrong with questioning why social rules exist and whether they should. "you can't say the n word, JUST ACCEPT IT" isn't a good way to go about it. the end result of a long and nuanced discussion - still gonna be white people not using the n word, but this "JUST ACCEPT IT. CASE CLOSED" philosophy certainly doesn't help. people should think about it and have discussion about it!

During the first Lollapalooza tour, Jane's Addiction brings out Ice-T to perform a rendition of Sly & the Family Stone's "Don't Call Me Nigger, Whitey (Don't Call Me Whitey, Nigger)". Perry Farrell sings the white part, Ice-T sings the Black part. Black quartet Living Colour comes onstage afterward and bandleader Vernon Reid announces "I'll never be anyone's nigger for entertainment..."

Backstage at a Rolling Stones show in 1989, Living Colour confronted Rose about "One In A Million" (both bands were opening the show). Rose said, "I didn't mean you guys were n*ggers!"

"you really shouldn't get involved in a discussion with a black person about whether its okay for them to say it or not. that's the rules."

I'm with you if it's someone going around uninvited like pushy church witnesses, but my understanding is that the majority of NWA, Body Count records were bought by white people, so there's a natural relationship where they as the consumers get to tell the producers what's bugging them about their otherwise fine product.

'discussions' xp

I thought the Elvis Costello mention referred to the incident when he (allegedly) (drunkenly) applied the "n" to Ray Charles/sorta disqualifies him, no?

― lifetime supply of boat shoes (m coleman), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 11:02 AM (41 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

nah, the so-called 'Columbia incident' happened on the tour in support of the album "Oliver's Army" is on, a few months after the single's release. the 33 1/3 book on Armed Forces gives a lot of detail/context/analysis about the incident and the lyric.

― neal page (some dude), Tuesday, 22 June 2010 16:03 (30 minutes ago)

I've read that Get Happy! and its Stax/Volt influence were seen as an attempt to redeem Costello for the Charles comment. Sort of like "hey, look, I love Black people so much I will now rip them off."