White musicians and "artistic" use of the N-word: A Discussion and Social History

"jock mentality is one of the major sources of white privilege
I think you would have to lay a lot of groundwork for you could reasonably make this assertion"

How much groundwork would you need? A group is granted status and privilege above others for dubious reasons at a crucial stage of development of their worldview, and once they get out they continue to hold these expectations.

"I am going to sound like Ian M here, but in my area 'jock' was used as a John Hughes social type more than an issue of sports"

^^^ exactly.

i am going to guess he thinks the bangs piece is hypocritical and self-serving because he's calling out other people for pulling the same shit he's pulled while also claiming he's now above that, thank you very much. but that sort overlooks the real anguish running through the piece over the damage/pain he's caused by unthinkingly showing his ass in public for so many years.

xp let's start by defining jocks, and let's not do it in this thread

So have we determined there's 6 reasons why a white person says the N-word on a record

1. Because they are playing a character (Newman/Biafra/Dicks)
2. Because they are making people "think" about "words," oooh (CocoRosie, Perry Farrell)
3. As an irresponsible metaphor (John Lennon, Patti Smith, Elvis Costello)
4. IRL trolling (Frogs/Anal Cunt)
5. Being racist/just ignorant (Axl Rose, David Allen Coe)
6. Letting one slip on accident (RA The Rugged Man)

I think any "shock value" use is either 2 or 4.

A group is granted status and privilege above others for dubious reasons at a crucial stage of development of their worldview, and once they get out they continue to hold these expectations.

I don't know that this supports the statement "jock mentality is one of the major sources of white privilege" - that group of people (the white middle class) would have privilege pertaining whether they were jocks or not. and do.

the frogs were the biggest assholes i ever opened for

So who has N Word Privileges?

Current rules appear to be as follows in the country of its most predominant usage, the United States of America:

* Those a part of the ethnic group to whom the term originally applies usually get a free pass.
* Those a part of an ethnic group who have also historically experienced racial discrimination sometimes get an honorary pass, but pains must be taken to not appear as part of the out-group when using it.
* Those a part of an ethnic group who have not historically experienced racial discrimination or have been folded into the group who have not historically experienced racial discrimination can exercise N Word Privileges only if their honorary in-group status is unquestionable to every single person within earshot. (And sometimes not even then.)

Another aspect of this trope is that if a person outside the group says an ethnic slur, that person is aware that it is wrong, or will soon accept that it is wrong, then later apologize for it. (This applies to clinical discussions of offensive terms.) Otherwise, it's just plain old prejudice. Thus when Draco Malfoy and Voldemort say "Mudblood" it doesn't count as this, because they never accept that it's wrong. (This applies bigots in Real Life, as well.)

Because whites as an ethnic group have not experienced racial discrimination (at least in history recent enough to be considered relevant) as almost every other ethnicity in the U.S., it is worth noting that most white people don't have N Word Privileges at all, even so far as calling other whites "whitey" or "gringo," etc. However, N Word Privileges do not just encompass ethnic slurs but religious ones as well, and these religious slurs are perhaps the only time whites are counted as part of an "in-group" with N Word Privileges.

Many people (of all ethnicities) find this trope problematic. Those belonging to the in-group wonder if they can really "reclaim" a word with such a loaded history, or the point in doing it at all. Those belonging in the out-group feel bereft at not having every single possible word in the English language at their disposal (not that they'd ever use it, mind, but Its The Principle Of The Thing), or perhaps just feel that a Double Standard is inherently wrong no matter what it's in reference to (that if a word is supposed to be improper to say for one group of people, it should be improper to say for everybody).

The title of this trope comes from Chris Rock's explanation of why white people can't say the N word. "Well, the thing is, you used to use it all the time. Got a little uppity with it, you might say. So your N-word privileges have been revoked."

The same phenomenon can be applied to non-ethnic terms as well, usually terms for various disabilities (crip, gimp, spaz, etc.) or for sexual orientation/identity minorities (fag, queer, tranny, etc.). The general idea is to resist the euphemism treadmill—thus implying that no euphemisms are needed because the concepts that would usually be referred to by "polite" words are not inherently shameful and do not need to be hidden.

Source: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NWordPrivileges

jock jamz mentality

Just checked out the lyrics for "Kicked in the Teeth". Bon is off the hook, i hear the lyric wrong.

"Two faced woman with the two faced lies
I hope your two faced living made you satisfied"

The way he says "living" is what tripped me up.

the frogs were the biggest assholes i ever opened for

― m@tt h (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 2:52 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

Theyve done a very poor job at this year's World Cup, you have to admit.

I would break these out separately as I think the Lennon/Ono usage is on a different plane:

- As an irresponsible metaphor (Patti Smith, Elvis Costello)
- As an "responsible" metaphor, to whatever degree the word can be responsible used (John Lennon/Yoko Ono)

I hated jocks in high school and always will

I hated jocks until the Raiders beat the Redskins in the Super Bowl, then we were all bros cryin on each other's shoulders

Nabisco I'm definitely being unfair to Lester - who did repudiate his own bad behavior - I've always felt he should've stopped at the self-lacerating part of that essay and refrained from calling out the racism on the punk scene. not that those people weren't idiots & bigots too - moreso than Bangs. But acknowledging his own moral failures didn't give Bangs the authority to judge others. We're all prejudiced in ways we don't realize; the best we can hope for is to NOT pass it on to our children or the next generation. I don't know, that article always felt sanctimonious and self-righteous to me - a lecture on racism from a guy wearing a "last of the white ..." t-shirt. It's a baby-boomer conflict; the 60s hippies always talked down to their younger brothers and sisters, people my age in the 70s. Punk was about casting off their influence until it got co-opted.

"Two faced woman with the two faced lies
I hope your two faced living made you satisfied"

The way he says "living" is what tripped me up.

o_O at your mishearing, holy hell

also granted I wasn't there but being talked down to by the previous generation is part of what is generally known as "being alive"; you even see it now in interactions on this board

shut up, dan.

oh wait, you were here first.

quiet old man

It's bad, I know. I thought he said "two faced little n****** satisfied". Bon was a guy who liked to wear the Confederate flag on occasion, maybe as a kid that's why I though he said that.

I hated jocks in high school and always will

― in my day we had to walk 10 miles in the snow for VU bootleg (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 2:56 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Intelligent comment.

zuh

Yeah, I mean, there are elements of the Bangs piece that strike me as both good writing and the guy owning up to some things being more important than him. Probably the best being the conversation with Ivan Julian that goes "You probably don't remember, but--" / "Oh yeah, I remember."

More importantly, I think it's really OTM and prescient that he connects the racism with this effort to be misanthropic and powerless and little cretins about it, which I think still animates the same thing in all kinds of punk and metal. I don't think he's particularly sanctimonious about it; it seems like he's putting work into understanding or finding sympathies for it, actually.

(this is a separate story but I am like 75% certain I had several drinks at a bar with Ivan Julian on Christmas once)

Lennon/Ono are really winning here as the most valid/responsible/meaningful usage, aren't they. It's the only one I can think of where the intent to shock or discomfort people is actually being used to make you uncomfortable about something of equal weight. Though it's still tricky and it really does not have time on its side.

- As an irresponsible metaphor (Patti Smith, Elvis Costello)
- As an "responsible" metaphor, to whatever degree the word can be responsible used (John Lennon/Yoko Ono)

― ilxor has truly been got at and become an ILXor (ilxor), Tuesday, June 22, 2010 2:56 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

it's all a matter of opinion. there's def some ppl that would argue that ANY use of the n-word by a white person is irresponsible no matter how strong the message. I

Lennon/Ono are clear winners here for me, as is EIII (didn't comment before but your story was rad)

its not a contest, guys

lol at the Frogs response, oh dear

I assumed it was obvious that the word "winner" was being used as shorthand for people who were able to successfully navigate the landmines around using hateful verbiage in their art to put forward a coherent point but apparently I was wrong.

'that group of people (the white middle class) would have privilege pertaining whether they were jocks or not. and do."
That's what's so insidious about it -- the jockocracy reinforces that type of privilege as a norm. It makes everyone the poorer for it.

I guess you could argue that having to confront that ugliness might bring you to question your own assumptions, as Axl's nonstop boorishness did for me, but by and large I think it's a net positive to just do away with it as much as possible, especially in a venue that is supposed to be instilling in you values on how to behave in the real world.

xpost

the W-word

This issue has been bounced back and forth since at least Huck Finn.

i don't think enough is being made of non-black instances in hip-hop except for that classsssic dr. dre story about the beastie boys upthread.

much more interesting that axl rose imo.

I guess you could argue that having to confront that ugliness might bring you to question your own assumptions, as Axl's nonstop boorishness did for me, but by and large I think it's a net positive to just do away with it as much as possible, especially in a venue that is supposed to be instilling in you values on how to behave in the real world.

Absolutely not. "Doing away with it as much as possible" leads to this:

http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/18/doll.study.parents/index.html

http://t0.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:0J1UXKebnom80M:http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_zQF_BaMJ5qw/SodbjOVfkVI/AAAAAAAABxs/o7hhhD554gA/s320/R-152218-1079243773.jpg

never forget

full study results here: http://i2.cdn.turner.com/cnn/2010/images/05/13/expanded_results_methods_cnn.pdf

must say that j-love & mc serch using this annoys me intensely, and strikes me as posturing/over-compensating/presumption tho i'm sure nabisco has a point abt being part of a culture etc.

what about fat joe?????

when did serch do this?

yeah i did not ever hear that abt serch

j-love's tag is "j-love, nigga" rather than "nigger" which is implicitly connecting to the culture and can be an inclusive thing but still

serch used it in everyday speech

man afaic -a or -er is still a distinction that white people don't get to make

there was Ill Bill's "white N----"

which is def a Patti/Lester throwback

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oUt5cJheY3Y

ARE there really that many instances of non-black rappers doing this, though? that's half a real question and half an assumption that most non-black rappers would be rather sensitive about this particular issue.

xposts: haha guess so.

"Absolutely not. "Doing away with it as much as possible" leads to this:
http://www.cnn.com/2010/US/05/18/doll.study.parents/index.html";

I don't understand -- are you saying these kids spontaneously developed racist attitudes that somehow a jock culture vaccine would have inoculated them against?

A 2007 study in the Journal of Marriage and Family found that 75 percent of white families with kindergartners never, or almost never, talk about race. For black parents the number is reversed with 75 percent addressing race with their children.

Po Bronson, author of NurtureShock and an award-winning writer on parenting issues says white parents "want to give their kids this sort of post-racial future when they're very young and they're under the wrong conclusion that their kids are colorblind. ... It's in the absence of messages of tolerance that they will naturally ... develop these skin preferences."

this is disturbing cause white kids must get the color-biased outlook from somewhere? like their teachers or peers. unless white racism is genetically determined. kindergartners would seem too young to be influenced by popular culture beyond the subliminal level. of course the survey questions could be subtly biased or leading toward this outcome.

Well look, all I was saying is that if you're really and seriously from an environment where it's always been cool for you to use the non-slur version of the word, I'm not going to get as bothered about saying you shouldn't. But I think most non-black/Caribbean* people in hip-hop know that no matter how much they share with the overall culture, this is maybe one thing they should acknowledge as a difference between themselves and some other people -- how many white people are cavalier about doing this?

(* this is an NYC perspective but, you know, there's lots of common experience here between black Americans, Caribbeans Americans consider black, and Caribbeans Americans consider Latino, and the non-black people I hear using the word most often and most comfortably tend to be in that last category.)

XPOST --

kindergartners would seem too young to be influenced by popular culture beyond the subliminal level

Dude, I'm sorry, but I just don't get this -- it's not "subliminal," it's coded into all the basics of our culture! I mean, it's like gender roles -- children do not invent those or hear about them later in life, they are being absorbed and imprinted from the get-go.

Some parents are doing something right: "4 Black children and 8 White children did not make a selection; they claimed that all of the children could be smart and, thus, they could not select just one child"

I'm going to requote you and highlight where I think you went wrong in your assumptions:

this is disturbing cause white kids must get the color-biased outlook from somewhere? like their teachers or peers. unless white racism is genetically determined. kindergartners would seem too young to be influenced by popular culture beyond the subliminal level. of course the survey questions could be subtly biased or leading toward this outcome.

Even allowing for an effect only on the subliminal level, doesn't that mean by definition that they are being bombarded by images that are subconsciously shaping their worldview towards the conclusion found in this study?

xp lol nabisco I think maybe we should make a formal tag-team system for these threads

Well look, all I was saying is that if you're really and seriously from an environment where it's always been cool for you to use the non-slur version of the word, I'm not going to get as bothered about saying you shouldn't. But I think most non-black/Caribbean* people in hip-hop know that no matter how much they share with the overall culture, this is maybe one thing they should acknowledge as a difference between themselves and some other people -- how many white people are cavalier about doing this?

(* this is an NYC perspective but, you know, there's lots of common experience here between black Americans, Caribbeans Americans consider black, and Caribbeans Americans consider Latino, and the non-black people I hear using the word most often and most comfortably tend to be in that last category.)

yep i accept that and more or less agree, and it must be said that j-love's dj tag, being a dj tag, is particularly intrusive, in-your-face and contextually weak, which adds to the disconcerting & annoying effect.