got any non-black examples
― Master of the Manly Ballad (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:05 (fourteen years ago) link
beck?
― young werther's originals (s1ocki), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:11 (fourteen years ago) link
Well PM Dawn really started sucking, so that may be why critics distanced themselves.
― he's always been a bit of an anti-climb Max (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:26 (fourteen years ago) link
Beck's best work seems to still be held in high regard, no...? Odelay, Minite Vultures, One Foot in the Grave, for example. That recent Beck poll got a LOT of votes
― Master of the Manly Ballad (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:29 (fourteen years ago) link
I was gonna say, Beck still gets plenty of crit love in certain circles.
― he's always been a bit of an anti-climb Max (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:32 (fourteen years ago) link
Yeah dude, I think Odelay is looked on with way more regard than Of the Heart, of the Soul and of the Cross: The Utopian Experience
― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:33 (fourteen years ago) link
I don't know a single critic or rap fan who liked soundbombing when it dropped and doesn't now. I think whiney is full of it. Y'all forget that the gangsta populist rap is cool now crew was made up of new jacks who didn't get into rap until they were in their mid 20s
― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:34 (fourteen years ago) link
Also pm dawn and michael franti always sucked? Tracy chapman was always p lame? This theory needs work.
― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:35 (fourteen years ago) link
PM Dawn is awesome
― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:36 (fourteen years ago) link
i dunno, i think beck is a good example. odelay seems to be held in much lower regard now than it once was. i seem to remember it being heralded as some kind of epochal event on release. seen now as a good/fun nostalgia piece, like "shit, remember the 90s?"
back when there used to be electroclash, novelty appeal led critics to foam about all kinds of stuff that they turned their backs on in a heartbeat. peaches, anyone?
(love u peaches btw}
― good news if you wear cargo shorts (contenderizer), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:37 (fourteen years ago) link
By yr theory why has kool keith maintained his critical respect? Why are outkast getting praise to the point where big boi's solid but not exact?y mindblowing solo record is a bnm ??
― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:38 (fourteen years ago) link
Dude, Pitchfork just called Beck one of the 100 best albums of the decade, i think that's critics holding him in higher than Michael Franti
― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:38 (fourteen years ago) link
Cool, deej, be sure to the same annoying logic games you play with our Gucci argument. "Whiney said X happens a lot, so he must mean X must happen EXCLUSIVELY"
― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:39 (fourteen years ago) link
Yeah contenderizer's got a good pt here actually _ I don't think u can speak so broadly about why some acts keep critical respect and some lose it. I'll be the first to say race enters into how critics receive everything but this theory has too many exceptions to make a rule.
― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:40 (fourteen years ago) link
what's the critical consensus on Basehead now?
― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:41 (fourteen years ago) link
Dog your theory has more holes than swiss cheese don't act like that's more about vendettas than normal criticism
― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:41 (fourteen years ago) link
I know MIA's not black, but every critic rushing to call her a retard all of a sudden probably fits into this too somehow.
― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:44 (fourteen years ago) link
uh she is a retard
― the resulting pussy stubble (J0rdan S.), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:45 (fourteen years ago) link
racist
― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:46 (fourteen years ago) link
i know :-(
― the resulting pussy stubble (J0rdan S.), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:46 (fourteen years ago) link
wtf is going on with your display name?!
The one generalization I think u can make here is that critics are just as bad/worse than the general public at jumping on every single trend when its new and shiney and are as quick to drop it when they realize it might make them look stupid. Lots and lots of bandwagon jumping
― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:47 (fourteen years ago) link
critical respect for kool keith seems stuck in some weird divide where the artist is respected, but there's some hesitancy about the crowd he appeals to. which isn't the same as a retraction of praise, but it's guarded, somehow. outkast are a perfect example of short-lived novelty appeal, cuz big boi's last couple recs are much more rap-traditional than TLB. a lot of people went nuts for TLB in the moment, then stepped back, while big boi's rep has steadily improved.
and maybe i'm wrong about odelay. rarely see beck mentioned as a touchstone in describing interesting contemporary music, but do hear a lot of "lol beck" chatter. random talk probably isn't the best measure of critical respect though.
― good news if you wear cargo shorts (contenderizer), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:47 (fourteen years ago) link
xxpost
I got 20/1 odds that it's kenan-related
― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:47 (fourteen years ago) link
Y'all forget that the gangsta populist rap is cool now crew was made up of new jacks who didn't get into rap until they were in their mid 20s
fwiw I was listening to NWA in 10th grade. so, y'know, I assume you ain't talking to me
― Master of the Manly Ballad (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:48 (fourteen years ago) link
Someone dig up that Spin top 200 albums of the last 25 years list and count how many times Beck is on it
― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:48 (fourteen years ago) link
The one generalization I think u can make here is that critics are just as bad/worse than the general public at jumping on every single trend when its new and shiney and are as quick to drop it when they realize it might make them look stupid. Lots and lots of bandwagon jumping― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, July 9, 2010 1:47 PM (1 minute ago)
― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, July 9, 2010 1:47 PM (1 minute ago)
http://i46.tinypic.com/14udeeh.jpg
― ksh, Friday, 9 July 2010 17:48 (fourteen years ago) link
Rap traditionalism is totally what's hot w critics right now tho - wow this sounds jusy like ugk!! - another prob w the avant garde theory
― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:49 (fourteen years ago) link
critics are just as bad/worse than the general public at jumping on every single trend when its new and shiney and are as quick to drop it when they realize it might make them look stupid.
― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, July 9, 2010 10:47 AM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark
this x1000. it's not necessarily that cynical, though. if you're sincerely interested both in music and the evolution of pop culture, you're necessarily gonna be drawn to what seems novel in the moment. that it takes you some time to fully process it isn't really a fault.
― good news if you wear cargo shorts (contenderizer), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:49 (fourteen years ago) link
they were ALWAYS slept on iirc but those first two albums are back-to-back classics. much love from me.
― Master of the Manly Ballad (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:50 (fourteen years ago) link
― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, July 9, 2010 10:49 AM (12 seconds ago) Bookmark
YES. totally. but that can be seen as a larger-scale version of the process - applied to a genre, not just to the artists in that genre. critics first approach the genre in terms of what "rises above" it, and only in time come to embrace it on its own, self-defined terms.
― good news if you wear cargo shorts (contenderizer), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:51 (fourteen years ago) link
this goes back to my main problem with Altered Zones is that good music should transcend the news peg of trendiness. Bands like Oneida and The Oh Sees who just make good album after good album deserve more shine than Memory Tapes
― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:51 (fourteen years ago) link
i mean, god, when we look back at chillwave it's gonna make grime look like Elvis on Sullivan
― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:52 (fourteen years ago) link
don't look back
― Master of the Manly Ballad (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:53 (fourteen years ago) link
― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, July 9, 2010 1:46 PM (7 minutes ago) Bookmark
it's part of a tuomas post from iltmi
― the resulting pussy stubble (J0rdan S.), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:55 (fourteen years ago) link
play with toys is great - haven't heard it in forever
― good news if you wear cargo shorts (contenderizer), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:55 (fourteen years ago) link
― blap...tremendo (deej), Friday, 9 July 2010 18:49 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
This is totally different to critic rap traditionalism though because ugk&hindsight&southern revisionism.
― fuque santa cruz (a hoy hoy), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:56 (fourteen years ago) link
Bands like Oneida and The Oh Sees who just make good album after good album deserve more shine than Memory Tapes
― Attention all Whiney fans! (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, July 9, 2010 10:51 AM (4 minutes ago) Bookmark
yeah, oneida deserved much more than a blip of curiosity for rated O. one of the best psych records of the last few years.
― good news if you wear cargo shorts (contenderizer), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:57 (fourteen years ago) link
what thread was this again?
― good news if you wear cargo shorts (contenderizer), Friday, 9 July 2010 17:58 (fourteen years ago) link
grime was pretty important
― لوووووووووووووووووووول (lex pretend), Friday, 9 July 2010 18:39 (fourteen years ago) link
By yr theory why has kool keith maintained his critical respect?
well, i mean Ultramagnetic and Critical Beatdown are core NYC rap canon, so he has support based on that, not just Black Elvis and shit
Oneida rules.
― peel ya frap back (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 9 July 2010 18:48 (fourteen years ago) link
also michael franti sucks and has always sucked
i don't think grime really fits into this theory either because most of the producers actively switched up their sound to something more populist. the avant-garde music you could call 'grime' (and not dubstep or funky or something else) did for the most part just stop. critics lost interest because there was nothing to be interested about.
― hoes on my dick cos my groceries bagged (tpp), Friday, 9 July 2010 18:57 (fourteen years ago) link
boundary pushing in a way that's similar to tracy chapman, TTD'arby. loved by many critics upon release, looked at askance a few years down the road.
I've been defending poor TTD for years!
― Filmmaker, Author, Radio Host Stephen Baldwin (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Friday, 9 July 2010 18:59 (fourteen years ago) link
'more populist' is actually not the right words since there was a few years where grime was actually avant-garde and massively populist. but you know what i mean
― hoes on my dick cos my groceries bagged (tpp), Friday, 9 July 2010 19:01 (fourteen years ago) link
ttd was never seen as avant garde. neither was tracy chapman. critics kinda loved and hated each in equal measure if i remember right. but they changed their minds really quick with ttd, maybe cos they wanted to see him put back in his place. now hes seen as an embarassment. and neither fish nor flesh - which was incredible - is seen as an utter failure.
if anything, i think stank/tlb-era outkast will be seen a bit more like idk, PE? praised as the future/innovative/progressive etc at the time, but as non-rap critics saw little merit in anything else about their music (they arent going to be getting hyped about a dope verse, esp if its laced with questionable content) they will find it hard to really see/remember what good it is after the moment has passed. its only real worth is that its 'new' and has amazing of the time/future sonics etc. whereas rock will be praised long after the moment as its deemed to be more timeless and has things like songwriting/lyrical worth going for it. obv with PE theyre praised and always will be for being political but thats always with reservations cos of griff/homophobia/sexism etc etc, its the sonics that is most indisputable about them. 'black music' is often left to languish purely in the pop culture moment. i mean, you read about R&B and hip hop and its always the futurism and the shock of the new that is talked about - which is cool, everyone can see that part of its appeal. but thats pretty transient stuff.
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Friday, 9 July 2010 19:29 (fourteen years ago) link
black music' is often left to languish purely in the pop culture moment. i mean, you read about R&B and hip hop and its always the futurism and the shock of the new that is talked about - which is cool, everyone can see that part of its appeal. but thats pretty transient stuff.
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Friday, July 9, 2010 12:29 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark
that sounds true, but the same thing happens to most music of every sort. it exists in its moment, but then fades to make room for whatever comes along next. and the appeal of futurism seems to have waned in recent years, at least in terms of how mainstream american critics discuss rap/R&B.
i guess i'm out of the loop somewhat, in that i still rate outkast and PE as highly as i ever did. i never heard the bomb squad as future music, though, i just thought it sounded good.
― good news if you wear cargo shorts (contenderizer), Friday, 9 July 2010 19:43 (fourteen years ago) link
well yeah, the 'futuristic' R&B and rap that hit the pop charts in the late 90s and early 00s will prob be canonised in years to come. p4k and spin roundups seem to include it. i suppose what i was saying in a slightly roundabout way was just repeating that this music is praised for those qualities first (and yes current-recent stuff isnt praised for that, as its not - cos not much of it is really doing anything as dramatically diff/new as before - eg the big boi album doesnt have that same wtf is this feel of stankonia to it), which is maybe justified, as that is what half the producers are going for too. theyre not really thinking about 'let me write the most amazing song', theyre thinking about beats.
― titchy (titchyschneiderMk2), Friday, 9 July 2010 20:23 (fourteen years ago) link
anyway this album is pretty fucking great
― obvious and old and bannable (forksclovetofu), Friday, 9 July 2010 20:32 (fourteen years ago) link
Yeah, this album is fucking fantastic. This week I bought this and the two E-40 albums, all three immediately catapulted to the top of my very short list of great 2010 rap albums.
― he's always been a bit of an anti-climb Max (jon /via/ chi 2.0), Friday, 9 July 2010 20:42 (fourteen years ago) link