Rolling Country 2008 Thread

amazed that John Anderson got shut out altogether, given how neotraditionalist stodgeroos like Strait...

Really -- and this goes way beyond this poll -- what the fuck is the deal with this? They started out right around the same time, and for a quarter-century, Anderson has been the more interesting artist. That's never even been a contest, as far as I can tell. But somehow, Strait (and you could throw in Randy Travis here too, and Alan Jackson too) got pegged as a hall-of-famer forever ago, and Anderson is, like, this weird footnote or something, if he's noticed at all. Is there anybody in Nashville who can explain that? Is it that Anderson (with his long hair and beard) was never considered clean-cut enough or (with his rock moves, from way early on) wasn't purist enough, even though he was clearly one of the guys who invented what used to be called "neo-traditionalism"? It makes no sense at all to me. And I have nothing particularly against Strait or Travis or Jackson; they're fine, occasionally even great. They just seem like teacher's pets, born with personalities, in comparison. Maybe that's the point?

Strangely enough, I've had this same conversation with a couple of people recently, mainly spurred on by the fact that Collector's Choice just rereleased a grip of Anderson's albums. I think the teacher's pet thing kinda nails it, as well as Anderson's physical appearance. Me and a friend were talking about why Anderson kept disappearing and reappearing on different labels while Strait's had so many hit singles in a row without ever having to make a comeback. (Really, who else was in Billboard's country charts in '83 who still has hit singles?)

Anderson's not afraid to play the fool every now and then, which is something Strait or Travis will NOT do. Could you see either man posing for an album cover, wearing a ten-gallon hat and a kimono? And calling it Tokyo, Oklahoma? (Maybe Alan Jackson, but not Strait or Travis.)

sorry for the double post

Well, John Anderson was--is--a great fucking r&b singer as well as being a country singer. He's also very short; I was up close to him once at a club here. But he's probably better-looking than, er, John Conlee. Or Garth. I think he's amazing, sui generis, endlessly listenable. Here I am writing about the Collectors' Choice reissues of five of his '80s records

That's a good piece, Edd. (I actually read it on actual newsprint while walking down the street last week.) Bizarrely enough, though, I actually reviewed Eye of the Hurricane in the Voice the first time it came out -- one of my very first published pieces for money, September 4, 1984. Wish I had the technology to scan it in here! I was pretty iffy about the album, though I had loved his previous All The People Are Talkin'. And this line, which starts out talking about that '83 album, is directly relevant to a discussion we were having earlier today on this thread: "The three singles were the three hardest things on the album, and each successive single rocked harder than its predecessor; by the time the anti-DWI 'Let Somebody Else Drive' came on the radio, it seemed as if Ronnie Van Zant had found a way to rise from the grave and squeeze his way onto country stations in between Barbara Mandrell and Eddie Rabbit. At that rate, Eye of the Hurricane should have sounded like the Sex Pistols. It doesn't."

yeah, that's right--it could have been an even better record. I hear it as his pressures-of-fame record--John Anderson's Eye of a Hurricane, that is. I go back and forth between All the People Are Talkin' and Tokyo, Oklahoma as the best of those records. For days, I simply couldn't get the chorus of "Eye" out of my head, though--real Florida soul.

"Well, John Anderson was--is--a great fucking r&b singer as well as being a country singer."

Dave Alvin once said he met the late Wilbert Harrison (R&B singer of "Kansas City" fame) on an airplane back in the '80s. Said Harrison was thinking of suing Anderson for "Swingin'" because his voice was so similar to Harrison's...

Is "She Sure Got Away With My Heart" on Eye Of The Hurricane? I always thought that song sounded like some lost Carolina beach music classic...

"He's also very short; I was up close to him once at a club here. But he's probably better-looking than, er, John Conlee. Or Garth. I think he's amazing, sui generis, endlessly listenable. Here I am writing about the Collectors' Choice reissues of five of his '80s records"

When I first got into country music in 1990, Anderson was one of the first artists whose albums I bought, mainly because his LP's were always in the cutout bins (and I'd always loved "Swingin'", even when I hated country). Two of my bargain-bin purchases wound up in Collector's Choice's reissus series.

-- whisperineddhurt, Thursday, January 24, 2008 11:26 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

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That's a good piece, Edd. (I actually read it on actual newsprint while walking down the street last week.) Bizarrely enough, though, I actually reviewed Eye of the Hurricane in the Voice the first time it came out -- one of my very first published pieces for money, September 4, 1984. Wish I had the technology to scan it in here! I was pretty iffy about the album, though I had loved his previous All The People Are Talkin'. And this line, which starts out talking about that '83 album, is directly relevant to a discussion we were having earlier today on this thread: "The three singles were the three hardest things on the album, and each successive single rocked harder than its predecessor; by the time the anti-DWI 'Let Somebody Else Drive' came on the radio, it seemed as if Ronnie Van Zant had found a way to rise from the grave and squeeze his way onto country stations in between Barbara Mandrell and Eddie Rabbit. At that rate, Eye of the Hurricane should have sounded like the Sex Pistols. It doesn't."

-- xhuxk, Thursday, January 24, 2008 11:43 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Link

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yeah, that's right--it could have been an even better record. I hear it as his pressures-of-fame record--John Anderson's Eye of a Hurricane, that is. I go back and forth between All the People Are Talkin' and Tokyo, Oklahoma as the best of those records. For days, I simply couldn't get the chorus of "Eye" out of my head, though--real Florida soul.

-- whisperineddhurt, Friday, January 25, 2008

Damn, forgot to edit! Sorry for the confusion. My last sentence in my last post is the one about how my bargain-bin purchases ended up being reissued - everything after that is a reprint.

Indelible high school memory: Coach Hackworth taping my knee before a home football game singing "Swingin'" at the top of his lungs, yelling "Don't ya just LOOOOOOVE that song, Cibula?" Although I was pretty much anti-country in those days (due to being surrounded by country music and its country fans), I had to admit that yes, I loved the hell out of that song.

Nashville Scene Poll Comments went up several hours after everything else.

Xgau says that "conceptually," Miranda ruled. Doesn't say what the concept is, though (or maybe he does and Geoffrey decided not to print it, but I doubt that).

I do think Edd's been kind of tough on Miranda. On the title song, "Crazy Ex-Girlfriend," Miranda is making it clear to us that she's playing (with) a stereotype, and I feel that she's having fun with it.

I probably need to listen to Connie Francis, now that Anthony's compared Taylor to her. (But when Taylor's album came out she was a sixteen-year-old singing about how sad it is to be sixteen.)

Man, I hope Little Big Town don't read Will Hermes
s comment hoping they discover Tusk. That would suck. (Though "Tusk" -- the single -- might be OK.)

Two more questions:

1) Does Preston Jones, who appears to be a total nincompoop and who apparently neglected to read Taylor Swift's songwriting credits, really believe that puffed-up/glammed-out personalities and songwriting-by-committee are something that were never part of Nasvhille before Underwood, Swift, and Sugarland came along and decided to threaten the genre? If so, I'm in awe.

2) And Will Hermes can't really believe Robert Plant is only just now turning into a true "artist" now that he's dueted with Alison Krauss, can he? Nah, Will's too smart for that -- must be some mistake.

Also, man, critics really hate Sugarland, don't they? I had no idea.

Don't see what's so puffed-up or glammed-out about Sugarland anyway. I didn't click with their first album (the only one I've heard) but more for the reason I don't click with Terri Clark, felt like adequate countryish rocking out.

I think that Taylor Swift digs deeper than Miranda, though I don't mean that as a criticism of Miranda, just that Taylor's working out the nuances of being a not-always-happy sixteen, while Miranda's having a blast shooting holes and setting off bombs.

Is Will Hermes smart? Always struck me as merely adequate rockish criticking out.

I like Miranda's record fine, Frank. Do feel it slows down a mite after first three-four songs. The concept is alt- meets bad ol' Row--professionally done! but, don't hear Himes' '70s tropes so much in Crazy Ex---seems more detailed somehow, or perhaps even shall we say more punked out in its energy, listen again to the songs and the way they rock (and the record definitely does rock in its way). Than, that is, the supposed matchup Himes posits betwixt Carrie and Miranda in his essay in Scene. I almost think Carrie's professional update of any number of glossy '70s tropes works as well as Miranda's, myself.

New Wililie Nelson Moment of Forever finds him singing real well, grabbing a pothead blues from Guy Clark, doing up Newman's "Louisiana 1927" not all that well but doing the hell outta Big Kenny's "The Bob Song," which really does recall the Randy Newman of Bad Love (Newman's most "country" record ever in my opinion)--bumptious sousaphone and lyrics that seem to be about Bush or someone equally dumb who made it to the top and says spend, Willie, spend all you want. The IRS won't mind. Elsewhere he writes a great one called "I Guess I'm Not Funny Anymore" about how he wants to tell a joke about a dirty whore...but wait, right, you said I wasn't funny any more. Big impressionistic production from Kenny...Chesney and Buddy Cannon--Eno couldn't have done better nor Newman on some of this wistful accordion/cello/gauzy guitar stuff. Never woulda thought something this glossy Willie would grab me but it does.

Edd, I'm still not sure you mean by Miranda's concept being alt-country meets Nashville. What is the "alt" part, exactly? Just the fact that she sings vengeful murder songs (which doesn't strike me as especially more alt than Nash anyway, to be honest)? If anything, her album ups the Nashville-country energy and rock quotient; seems to me that if it was an alt hybrid, it would go exactly in the other direction. It's not like alt-country has had much punk in its sound since, when, Rank and File days? (I guess she does cover a Gillian Welch song, though, and Welch is clearly alt; but nobody calls Tim McGraw's albums alt meets Nashville when he covers Ryan Adams, I don't think. I've also heard people say before that she sounds like Steve Earle, which might be possible, though I don't hear it myself -- for one thing, Miranda Lambert can sing.) (I also get the idea that what you've been saying, Edd, is that its hybrid strikes you as too compromised -- that maybe it sounds too professional for an alt-meet-Nash attempt, which suggests you think it should be more alt? Or maybe I'm misreading you. But if so, I still don't get what you think it would gain from more altness.)

Here's what I wrote about Willie's new album toward the end of the '07 rolling country thread. I should maybe listen again to "I Guess I'm Not Funny Anymore," though; somebody else said I might like it:

WILLIE NELSON -- Tracked through his new one, which is produced by Kenny Chesney of all people. I like his cover of Big & Rich's (mostly Big Kenny's, I assume) "The Bob Song" (from B&R's unjustly ignored Super Galactic Fan Pack EP from a few years ago) -- song's kinda dorkey, about how we're all eccentric monkeys in our way; I can see Jimmy Buffet fans who fancy themselves being free-thinkers when they're on vacation from their investment banking jobs enjoying it, but it makes me chuckle anyway (and I don't even like margaritas). Willie also covers Randy Newman's flood song "Louisiana" and Dylan's born-again song "Gotta Serve Somebody" -- competently, I guess. They're both good songs; he's a good singer even if he does sing almost every song exactly the same (which is one reason I never connect with his albums, probably.) But I said almost: He actually employs his rare low register when interpreting the Dave Matthews Band's "Gravedigger" (which tracks from their gravestones the birth and death years of three apparently unrelated individuals who died in the 20th Century, and they all ask to be buried in shallow graves so they can feel the rain, and then there's a ring-around-the-rosey-pocket-full-of-posies plague part); Willie probably improves the song, but I haven't heard DMB's version in years (and only once or twice then), so I'm not really sure. It's okay, I guess; interesting words. (I've always assumed Matthews is a smart guy; he's just never made me care about his smartness.) Beyond that, not much on the Willie album drew me in -- there's one sort of jazzily sung and instrumented cut in the middle (maybe "Keep Me From Blowing Away"?) that had some jauntiness to it, and "When I Was Young and Grandma Wasn't Old" is a halfway decent memory song....but beyond that, shrug. Given all the covers, I'm wondering whether this a Johnny Cash style critical respectability for the country legend move. If it is, I guess it's not an awful one. But I can't imagine I'll be playing it again.WILLIE NELSON -- Tracked through his new one, which is produced by Kenny Chesney of all people. I like his cover of Big & Rich's (mostly Big Kenny's, I assume) "The Bob Song" (from B&R's unjustly ignored Super Galactic Fan Pack EP from a few years ago) -- song's kinda dorkey, about how we're all eccentric monkeys in our way; I can see Jimmy Buffet fans who fancy themselves being free-thinkers when they're on vacation from their investment banking jobs enjoying it, but it makes me chuckle anyway (and I don't even like margaritas). Willie also covers Randy Newman's flood song "Louisiana" and Dylan's born-again song "Gotta Serve Somebody" -- competently, I guess. They're both good songs; he's a good singer even if he does sing almost every song exactly the same (which is one reason I never connect with his albums, probably.) But I said almost: He actually employs his rare low register when interpreting the Dave Matthews Band's "Gravedigger" (which tracks from their gravestones the birth and death years of three apparently unrelated individuals who died in the 20th Century, and they all ask to be buried in shallow graves so they can feel the rain, and then there's a ring-around-the-rosey-pocket-full-of-posies plague part); Willie probably improves the song, but I haven't heard DMB's version in years (and only once or twice then), so I'm not really sure. It's okay, I guess; interesting words. (I've always assumed Matthews is a smart guy; he's just never made me care about his smartness.) Beyond that, not much on the Willie album drew me in -- there's one sort of jazzily sung and instrumented cut in the middle (maybe "Keep Me From Blowing Away"?) that had some jauntiness to it, and "When I Was Young and Grandma Wasn't Old" is a halfway decent memory song....but beyond that, shrug. Given all the covers, I'm wondering whether this a Johnny Cash style critical respectability for the country legend move. If it is, I guess it's not an awful one. But I can't imagine I'll be playing it again.

-- xhuxk, Thursday, 27 December 2007 13:53 (1 month ago) Link

Oops, sorry about that double cut-and-paste. (Readers of this thread are going to start thinking they're crosseyed if this keeps happening more.)

Otherwise, I've been liking a lot of songs on the new Hayes Carrl album, a few on the new Zane Lewis album, and maybe a couple on the new Chris Hicks album. Whoever they are. Will explain more sometime.

I guess what I'm asking, Edd, is why you think "perfectly serviceable mainstream country, complete with sound effects" would be less interesting than something that would have "married bad old Nashville to good old alt-country in any meaningful way". I'm not even sure what the latter could mean -- it sounds about as interesting as, I don't know "marrying metal to grunge" or something: A hybrid of two related subgenres that share a ton in the first place, so what would be the big deal?

the whole No Depression ethos is by folks who discovered punk (or post-punk) and crazy ol' country music at the same time. Miranda's record is for those people, it seems to me; and as I might've related here, I heard a guy who lives fully in that world tell me that Miranda's record meant "we won!!" (his words). As in, the people who discovered punk and old-time country at the same time and thought that was the thang. They won, alt-country won, on that record. They didn't win shit in my opinion. I hear it as an overly professional, right, simulation of the offhandedness of several basically alt-insurgent-whatever-country modes--musically, mainly, but sure, also lyrically. I think that there would be a way to marry alt- whatever to bad old Nashville in a truly meaningful way, but I don't think you can do it in Nashville. Because no matter what, thangs is just too fucking professional there, as far as the mainstream shit goes--just listen to Justin Earle's new record, it does the same thing except it's not on Columbia but on Bloodshot. In other words, I think it's a good record but that stuff's being read into it that amounts to wishful thinking; and the "concept" that Xgau refers to (and which I refer to in my original review of the record where I call it "a conceptual wonder") is exactly that--alt- meets the Row and has a big old time. We won.

I mean, I'm attempting to work out why I think critics might just have overrated Miranda's record a bit. One thing that hit me in Himes' Scene essay is how he says both Miranda and Carrie use a " '70s arena-rock template that rules Music Row these days." Huh? How is Crazy Ex-Girlfriend arena-rock? The whole idea is in the drum attack, which ain't Music Row arena-rock big-hair standard but a rockin' indie punk thwokking. The spareness of the whole thing--and the way those sound effects creep in there creating the illusion of spontaneity they were after--isn't arena-rock. As for Carrie's record, I hear it as a '90s pop/rock template, in my notes for it I know I heard the inevitable '90s powerpop pastiche (sounds like Jellyfish, and studio dudes in Nashville are all about music like that, just ask Ray Kennedy). So I think the whole comparison breaks down, but that's Geoff's take, there are other things in that essay I agree with.

But yeah, I think Christgau got it right--Miranda is the year's concept. So OK, I hear that as alt- meets the Row. For ex., Elizabeth Cook: produced by Rodney Crowell (heir at one time to ol' Gram hisself and with impeccable outlaw cred having worked w/ Emmylou herself, had his songs cut by Gary Stewart). Me, I coulda used a ton more guitar from Cook's husband Tim Carroll on that record--I dig his playing. And she covered Lou Reed, whose third VU record has to be at this point an Outlaw Country Folk touchstone. Punk. Where Cook's record sorta let me down--love that single and like her singing--was that it didn't go far enough in its spareness, and it sounded underpowered. Pam Tillis' record did the same thing but it really was Nashville '70s folk-country in supposed High Semipopular mode (Tillis as interpreter, cf. Bonnie Raitt). Kelly Willis was some kind of attempted mannerist pop record. I'm just picking examples of the records that made the critics' list. The above records, and a record that didn't seem to make the list but tht I found very very indicative of the mindset of Nashville (because I want to try to understand that and interpret that), Song of America, featured all indie or alt- figures--Cook, Banhart, Suzy Bogguss (who's a Nashville Eclectic, jazzy American Songbook division, and banters with Garrison Keillor on his fucking show), Grascals, etc. No big country stars at all. I guess what I'm trying to get at is what passes for Quality and Innovation in Music City--I think it comes down to the alt/punk thing I've already talked about. Virtuous. This is the concept, and Lambert's record the major-label stab at that, everybody's doing it. I think "Dry Town" and "Famous in a Small Town" are great; the rest of it I like fine.

should be above, the records I cite all featured a combination of indie-alt people and the usual A-listers.

Edd, I don't think "alt" is a concept or a sound; it's a demographic. But as for how Angry Ex-Girlfriend sounds, maybe it's something that an alt-person would approve of, but it doesn't sound to me like it's something that an alt-person would make. It rocks too hard, and Miranda sings with too strong an emphasis. But then you listen with far greater concentration than I do, and while I've heard songs here and there by all those other people you mention, I haven't heard any of their latest albums. But as for what I like about e.g. the song "Gunpowder and Lead," it seems a lot closer to LeAnn Rimes' "Family" and Carrie Underwood's "Flat On The Floor" (to name those artists' respective album openers) than to anything I've heard from alt-country ever: acoustic opening played with concentrated intensity, followed by blistering hard rock. I don't know. Maybe Jason & The Scorchers went for something like that back in the day, but I don't remember them having the chops to pull it off. Of course, how the Rimes and Underwood rock out may be a "conceptual" block to an alt-country aficionado, in that LeAnn's still throwing around unashamed big-voiced divaisms and Carrie's got some big-bubble Leppard tunefulness on her track (but then I think Leppard's got at least as much claim to "punk" heritage as alt-country does, but then maybe the claim that any of these have to such a heritage zero). Also don't think the Carrie track quite jells, but the problem isn't conceptual. I'd love to hear it sung by co-writer Ashley Monroe. By the way, the guitar at the end of "Gunpowder and Lead" is very much from "Sympathy For The Devil" (which means it could find its way onto a Brooks & Dunn album), but what I'm not hearing in that song is any of the pale miniaturism that afflicts alt-country. And I (therefore?) don't get what's so different between the instruments on "Family" and the instruments on "Gunpowder and Lead," not to mention the instrumental approach to Brooks & Dunn's great triple play "Tequila," "Drop In The Bucket," and "Drunk On Love." The latter three are a bit different in being even more maniacally groove-oriented than the rockers on the Rimes and the Brooks & Dunn (and on the Tritt and the Anderson and the...). But none of those sounds, Miranda's or anyone else's, are shy about filling the room.

But rather than speculate as to why Mr. Alt Person likes Miranda but won't get close to LeAnn or Brooks & Dunn (my theory is that one reason Mr. Alt Person isn't singing the praises of "Tequila," which is practically Sam The Sham And The Pharaohs, or "Family," or "Easy Money," or "Should've Listened," is that he hasn't heard them; those aren't the songs or styles of those artists that are getting radio emphasis, and the fellow probably isn't listening for the album tracks).

None of which explains why Miranda topped my list. More and better rock songs, with more and better hooks and good seering singing. Thought she flubbed her nonrockers, but fortunately there weren't many of them. But the Tritt, Wilson, Rimes, and Brooks & Dunn albums were only a song or two from matching it.

The latter three are a bit different in being even more maniacally groove-oriented than the rockers on the Rimes and the Brooks & Dunn (and on the Tritt and the Anderson and the...)

Er, those three are on the Brooks & Dunn, but they're even more maniacally groove-oriented than the rockers on the Rimes and the Lambert (and on etc.)...

I guess even if "alt meets the Row" is the concept, it's too weak to register with me as much of a concept. I'd say that the concept is "angry ex-girlfriend," passions and vengeance twisted beyond health, while rocking hard, OR "'Kerosene' was the best song on my last album so let's do it some more" OR "'Before He Cheats' really kicks butt even if Carrie Underwood has big hair" OR "'The Mindy McCready Story w/ Miranda Lambert in the starring role," except the reason it's conceptual is that fortunately she's not leading Mindy McCready's life, and the whole point is that Miranda's having a heel-clicking, hair-throwing, headbanging good time playing these roles, pretending she's stepped out of an episode of Cops or out of the files of her dad's detective agency or something. Anyway, it's role-playing, dressup, which works for her, but it actually does feel a bit more distanced than I'd like. (Not that Gretchen and the rest aren't also role playing, but they're not so much "Watch Me Play This Role.")

By the way, Mindy McCready was released from jail about four weeks ago.

And of course the concept (and the song title) is CRAZY Ex-Girlfriend. Frank Kogan, Man Of Typos And Flubs.

How is Crazy Ex-Girlfriend arena-rock? The whole idea is in the drum attack, which ain't Music Row arena-rock big-hair standard but a rockin' indie punk thwokking. The spareness of the whole thing--and the way those sound effects creep in there creating the illusion of spontaneity they were after--isn't arena-rock.

Have to agree with Edd. Didn't hear any arena in it. And I'm usually fine with that, anyway. Tried to like it, even past the role-playing, and it just wouldn't stick.

But Geoff's Scene esssay did recall the time back when I was twenty and hearing a radio documentary on the career of Bob Dylan, and the narrator said that Dylan "attacked those leading empty and shallow conformist lives," and my friend Steve jumped up and shouted, "Yes, and you, YOU KNOW WHO YOU ARE, you empty and shallow conformists." At that point I got the inspiration to start the BDFWHBDF (Bob Dylan Fans Who Hate Bob Dylan Fans), but I never followed through, since this was 1974 so I was no longer that much of a Bob Dylan fan. But certainly we can start the MLFWHMLF (Miranda Lambert Fans Who Hate Miranda Lambert Fans).

George, what did you think of "Kerosene" back on Miranda's first album? I'm hoping that you'll find something in Miranda for you to be a fan of, so that you can join our little club.

Or print a T-shirt that says, "Look, just because I voted for Miranda Lambert in the Nashville Scene poll doesn't mean I'm an imbecile."

as for how Angry Ex-Girlfriend sounds, maybe it's something that an alt-person would approve of, but it doesn't sound to me like it's something that an alt-person would make. It rocks too hard, and Miranda sings with too strong an emphasis...I don't know. Maybe Jason & The Scorchers went for something like that back in the day,

Yeah, this is exactly what I was trying to say this morning; Frank just said it more coherently. I'm not aware of any alt-country that sounds like the Miranda Lambert album. Edd seems to think that what prevents Miranda from pulling off a proper alt/Nash fusion is that Nashville is too professional. I don't buy that. What prevents Miranda from pulling off a proper alt/Nash fusion is that alt (inasmuch as "alt" is a sound) is too piddly and timid, and Miranda's not willing to be piddly or timid enough.

(I'm pretty sure I said this somewhere on Rolling Country '07 too, though I have no idea how I'd search it -- Alt-country might claim Miranda as its own, but her rock is way closer to Nashville's rock than to alt's idea of rock. And good for her.)

Also agree with Frank about the arena-vs-punk thing. Much of the arena rock that Nashville loves sounds a lot closer to punk rock than most alt-country does. (I guess there may be alt exceptions -- Dale Watson now and then? Cactus Brothers? But I think they're rare.) Just because alt-country bands pay lip service to punk doesn't mean it's in their music.

(Pat Benatar had more punk in her music than Bonnie Raitt did, too. And Benatar and Def Lep got their punk from the same place -- namely, '70s glam rock.)

By the way, been trying to listen to Steve Earle's kid's album today, but so far, it's drawing a blank.

Btw, the unison pounding at the start of Miranda Lambert's "Kerosene" reminds me of nothing so much as John Entwistle's big pounding bass stomp at the start of "My Generation." And the Who pretty much invented arena rock. Of course, I don't think Miranda's ever matched "Kerosene," but the difference in arena's might be '60s rather than '70s (as opposed to arena's vs. non). Also, I think I know what you mean by "spare" in relation to punk, but I think "spare" is the wrong word. I'd never call the Dolls or the Stooges or the Sex Pistol's or Black Flag "spare." Maybe what it is, is that they weren't afraid to let their music get imbalanced, or something. They didn't pad their sound, perhaps? (Not sure what I mean.)

um, don't know what that apostrophe is doing in "arenas." Damn, I've got to learn to read before I hit "Submit."

I think I know what you mean by "spare" in relation to punk

You being Edd, not Xhuxk.

xp (Not saying Lambert sounds especially arena-rock to me, though. For some reason the band her music has always reminded me of more than any other -- at least in her more rocking moments -- is Screaming Blue Messiahs.* But that's been well documented.)

Justin Earle just sounds like a folkie dullard to me; not hearing Nashville in his sound at all. At least his dad's unlistenability is kinda distinctive.

But I am enjoying these raunchy lo-fi blues-stomp duo guys right now, at the moment (though they might make more sense on the hard rock thread, especially since George already wrote about Black Keys there.):

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendID=25297276

* -- Who may well have owed a lot to the Who, now that Frank mentions them, though that had never occurred to me before.

yeah, the only song I've connected with on Justin Earle's record is the very first 'un, where he does cool stuff with a kind of '20s parlor-blues musical framework. but I think the voice might be too thin to carry it, eh?

xpost

I did like one song quite a bit on the Lambert CD -- "Dry Town." Enough to list it in a year end list, anyway. Not entirely sure why it was a repeat play for me. The dry, snappy rhythm's probably what did it.

(I've probably run this subject into the ground by now, but I wonder how representative Geoff Himes and Preston Jones actually are of the poll's Miranda voters, if those voters are rationalizing their votes in the way that Himes and Jones do. I mean, even someone who predominangly likes alt might pause at claiming that Miranda challenges assumptions and lets us hear something we don't alreay know. I clicked on a bunch of the Miranda voters in P&J (who may or may not be representative of the country critics voters), until I got bored, to see if I could get a feel of what else they were voting for. A lot of 'em voted for the indie usual, and for stuff within some range of alt country like Lucinda Williams or Patty Griffin, but almost always with some pop mixed in, Lily Allen or Soulja Boy Tellem or Britney Spears or Aly & AJ or Rihanna. It's hard to imagine someone who votes for Mika or Lloyd or Heidi Montag as well as for Crazy Ex-Girlfriend then turning around and saying that the latter challenges assumptions and gives us something we don't already hear in contrast to the puffball country pop. I hope Preston Jones reads Jon Caramanica's ballot, seeing as how Caramanica not only voted for Miranda, he voted for Sugarland and Taylor too. (Preston Jones own ballot included stuff by Patty Griffin and Arcade Fire and Teddy Thompson and Bruce Springsteen, but he also voted for a Duran Duran single!))

Actually, speaking of Steve Earle, I just saw him in an episode of The Wire last night (final episode of the 4th season -- I'm living on Netflix time), and he was pretty good, I guess, but his part didn't last long. (Method Man was listed in the end credits, too, actually, but I must've missed him.)

I was also puzzled by Himes' assertion that the reason voters chose the Burritos' Avalon '69 set in reissues in the Scene poll was that it included two ex-Byrds. I think it's because of Gram Parsons. And I'll note that Parson's reputation seems actually to have suffered reversals lately, even from the No Depression reviewer, who said something like "he was great, but was he any good?" I know smart people who maintain that the Dillard and Clark records from right around the same time as the first Burrito Brothers record really "started country-rock." I don't know about that, and I think Gilded Palace is sui generis myself, and watching a Parsons documentary recently I definitely think Parsons was a fuckup. I am fascinated by the relationship Nashville had with the '60s, anyway, and I've often mused that Porter Wagoner was the only country artist to really take on the craziness of the decade head-on; check out the Wagoner comp The Rubber Room. And Parsons captured that '60s lysergic shiver on Gilded so well.

xpost

there are other things in that essay I agree with

I was astonished at how breathtakingly irrational and inarticulate and lacking in self-awareness it was. Which doesn't mean there's nothing interesting in it or no statements I agree with. (E.g., I agree that Paisley is versatile without actually shining in any one aspect; I disagree that Paisley's the most talented country artist of his generation.) Actually, Geoff's irrationality, inarticulateness, and self-delusion are interesting in themselves, in that when someone reasonably intelligent (I mean, I don't think the man holds world records in brilliance, but he hadn't previously come across as an imbecile, and - for instance - his essay on Springsteen in Paste's top 100 songwriters issue was really smart) makes assertions that can't survive even 20 seconds of reflection, there's something interesting at work: some mental block or social imperative that's getting in the way of normal thought processes. I haven't gone into the irrationality etc. here, since I assume it's all obvious to every one of you, but for those who merely skimmed the essay or didn't read it, Geoff's claiming that Miranda Lambert challenges assumptions but he doesn't say what assumptions she's challenging, he doesn't seem to notice that the existence of Carrie Underwood's "Before He Cheats" challenges his own claims about her (that she's reinforcing the role of the sweet, beautiful, All-American girl and that she doesn't do all that well in his polls), he also says in effect that Jimmie Rodgers and Hank Williams and George Jones and Merle Haggard (and Elvis and Dylan and the Beatles and Beethoven and anyone in any time or place who's massively successful with consumers) provides their audience with reassurance and virtuosity, and he doesn't realize that pointing out how long it took Merle Haggard to became a big star (three whole years) doesn't remotely exempt Haggard from his contention, he also seems to be saying that the relationship between fans and Carrie Underwood, as well as between fans and any other popular performers (including my list above from Rodgers to Beethoven, right?), is that the fans are standing back and admiring "virtuosic performances that meet a platonic ideal" (cue to shots of American Idol as fans stand back and platonically admire Carrie Underwood), and, as a bunch of us pointed out above, Himes doesn't make anything of the fact that his poll appears in an alt-weekly and that the people voting in his poll tend to write for alt-weeklies or the online equivalents, which is to say that we're generally not writing for or to the mainstream country audience and that what reassures or challenges us probably isn't what reassures or challenges the mainstream country audience. Anyway, I doubt that I have much to say about this that you guys won't already agree with, and my only insight here is the old one that what a significant part of the country audience and a significant part of the alternative audience seem to have in common is an underlying feeling of phoniness and that Geoff is representative of the "alt" side of this, seeking reassurance that he and we as critics are perpetually searching for new challenges - that we're critics not conformists. So both the insecurity and the habit of lauding oneself for challenging oneself have overridden his mind in this instance, and overrides a lot of people's minds in the same way. Except as I said in my last post, I wonder how representative he is of the people who voted in his poll, whether his rationalizations for Miranda really do match our reasons, since it seems that every one of us on this thread voted or would have voted for at least something by Miranda, yet none of us are buying Geoff's line. I'm hoping that Geoff's the outlier here, and that we're more representative. Not that most voters vote our way - they lean towards alt-country quality that a lot of us find stodgy or are indifferent too - but I'm hoping that some of these other voters tripped over Geoff's illogic in the same way we did.

By the way, has any mainstream country album (as opposed to alt stuff by Wilco or oddball matchups like Van Lear Rose or prestige items by no-longer-charting icons like Johnny Cash) ever scored as high on Pazz & Jop as Crazy Ex-Girlfriend?

I doubt it. Willie Nelson's Stardust finished #19 in 1978; that's not even all that close. I don't think Dwight Yoakam (who is as much alt as Nash) has ever even finished in the top 30, though I might be wrong. (On the other hand, John Cougar Mellencamp's Scarecrow, which would certainly count as mainstream country if it came out now, did finish #3 in 1985. But it sure didn't count as country then.)

1975 Pazz & Jop Critics Poll

15. Willie Nelson: Red Headed Stranger (Columbia)
26. Waylon Jennings: Dreamin' My Dreams (RCA)

But 1975 was before I started paying attention!

Lyle Lovett and/or k.d. Lang may have had a top 20 album once, but they were even more borderline than Dwight (at least by the time they scored, I think.)

1974, if she counts:

11. Linda Rondstadt: Heart Like a Wheel (Capitol)

And another album, from 1979, that sounds like 2007 mainstream country:

8. Tom Petty & the Heartbreakers: Damn the Torpedoes (Backstreet/MCA)

yeah ya know the Pazz and Jop winner in '76 was I believe Michael Hurley et. al's Have Moicy! (a superb record). wasn't it? To my ears, this is the kind of record that presaged all the Hackensaws/Jones Street Boys/Avett Brothers/Red Stick Ramblers and various bluegrassed potheads that are a part of country music today--and I saw Hurley himself at the worst club in Nashville, the Springwater (a great place within pissin' distance of the Parthenon replica in Centennial Park but it's frankly a toilet and that's all right, I've spent many a night there and have actually on occasion seen some great shit, just don't use the bathroom if you can help it) just a month ago.

and how high did Lucinda's Car Wheels score in 2000?

I really have no problem with Miranda's record winning. Obviously she's got a concept that goes beyond my alt-Row matchup. She's cool with fame. But so is Carrie Underwood, and Carrie is obviously going to be a big vulgar force of nature for a while. I don't get much identity pouring out of Underwood, but her records are undeniably powerful. I'd argue as much calculation went into Miranda's, just a different kind of calculation. Buddy Miller sings backup on it, and while I normally shy away from vaguely futuristic honky-acid Bible blues of the sort he does, I think he makes some powerful records. So my question would be I guess, if Miranda said to Sony/BMG, "Hey, I wanna go over to Buddy Miller's house--been tradin' bean soup recipes with Julie, she's so cool and they both spent a lotta time down in Texas, just like me. I figger Blake, if that sumbitch don't get on my nerves and I have to withhold the pussy from 'im, why hell I will, but anyway, he kin drop me off there and we just do it at his house. I mean hell I know I'm better-lookin' than Solomon Burke, I hung out over there when he was cuttin' with Buddy and the dude tried to sell me a fuckin' ham sandwich! Wanted $5 for it! I got a few Jimmy Driftwood songs I've been wantin' to do, and a Townes Van Zandt of course, and maybe an old soul classic or semi-classic, somethin' by Ann Peebles or Laura Lee--mebbe 'Women's Love Rights'. I figure we could really just go ahead and cross over and rock it out. Sure we could do some overdubs later in a real studio. Sure I'd use the same musicians--the guitar player has got a nice ass! Shot 'im with my BB gun in the studio, and all them fuckers could do was laugh! So what! And hell, I'd pose naked or half-naked on the back or front, it don't matter, or you could get a shot of me duckin' under water in Jamaica or down at Corpus Christi! It'll work--and it'll be cheap so long as we don't go overboard on the postproduction. So, whaddya think?"

You think they'd let her do it?

Have Moicy topped the Dean's list in '76 but didn't make the P&J top 30. Album poll was won by Songs In The Key Of Life. Car Wheels won in '98, and it's relevant (just as Wilco is) but I'm not counting it as mainstream country. I'm mainly concerned with whether I can say in my column that Crazy Ex-Girlfriend is the highest-charting mainstream country album ever on P&J. Past P&J results are here. I just asked the question 'cause I wanted you guys to do my work for me.

If you're going to talk proto-alt-country (which I guess Have Moicy! is, though again, I've yet to hear any alt-country that approaches its weirdness and energy and humor, ever), there are also these:

1974
12. Gram Parsons: Grievous Angel (Reprise)

1975
21. James Talley: Got No Bread, No Milk, No Money, But We Sure Got a Lot of Love (Capitol)

But yeah, those are hardly mainstream, though.

BUT BUT BUT -- This guy had actual HITS, right??

1975
18. Gary Stewart: Out Of Hand (RCA)

But that still doesn't equal Miranda's #15 finish...

a few more interesting finishes:

1982
22. Rank and File: Sundown (Slash)

1985
22. Jason and the Nashville Scorchers: Lost and Found (EMI America) 212 (23)
23. Meat Puppets: Up on the Sun (SST) 186 (20)
24. Lone Justice: Lone Justice (Geffen) 186 (17)
26. The Mekons: Fear and Whiskey (Sin import)

1986
3. The Robert Cray Band: Strong Persuader (Mercury) 592 (57)
13. Steve Earle: Guitar Town (MCA) 330 (33)
15. Mekons: The Edge of the World (Sin import)

1987
5. John Hiatt: Bring the Family (A&M) 694 (59)
7. John Cougar Mellencamp: The Lonesome Jubilee (Mercury) 462 (44)
23. Rosanne Cash: King's Record Shop (Columbia)

The one of these that most counters Frank's argument, I think, is Steve Earle. That was actually a hit radio on country stations, wasn't it?

And has Rosanne Cash done better, with a mainstream hit album? I'm not sure, but it's possible, now that I remember she existed.

I put Cray up there because I have no idea whether he crossed over country at all, though he may have.

John Hiatt DID briefly cross over country, I think -- but not with that album, I don't think. And even when he crossed over, calling him a "mainstream country artist" would probably have been a stretch.

a HIT on country RADIO stations (= Earle), I meant.

Wow (though not significant, in either case):

1983
7. Jimmie Dale Gilmore: Spinning Around the Sun (Elektra) 427 (39)
22. Willie Nelson: Across the Borderline (Columbia)

Earle again, but by this time he's alt for sure:

1999
18. Steve Earle and the Del McCoury Band: The Mountain (E Squared)
2000
13. Steve Earle: Transcendental Blues (E-Squared/Artemis)

#1 country album, no airplay (also lower than #15):

2001
19. O Brother, Where Art Thou? (Mercury)

OK, to dot my i's and cross my t's, here is Himes:

When Underwood describes her broken heart on "Flat on the Floor," she channels Heart's Ann Wilson as she wallows in self-pity: "You can't knock me off my feet when I'm already on my knees." Lambert refuses to give in to her broken heart on "Getting Ready." Channeling Bonnie Raitt, she wrestles with her self-pity as if it were a worthy opponent: "I’m getting ready to let you go / My hands are shakin' / My heart’s unsteady."

Well, first off, I don't see why wallowing in self-pity in a song isn't as valid as wrestling with self-pity is; and Taylor Swift (for instance) has songs where she wallows, songs where she wrestles, and songs where she leaves the self-pity behind. In fact, most any country or pop singer is likely to have all three, because country and pop singers tend to cover all parts of the romance cylce. But anyway, Himes isn't simply trying to argue that Lambert is better (though I don't see how his example shows that) but that Lambert is challenging me and giving me new information by wrestling with self-pity rather than wallowing in it, and that I like Lambert because I seek such challenges. And this is what I don't understand at all. As far as I can tell, Geoff's thesis and his examples have nothing to do with each other. Like, is it less challenging and informative for me to listen to a new country band of the quality of Molly Hatchet than it is to listen to a new country band of the quality of Lynryd Skynyrd?

xp (And those Gilmore #7 -- how the hell did he finish so high? Did Joe Ely ever even place Top 40??? -- and Nelson #22 albums should be 1993, not 1983).