Why I Love Country Music

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It presumes an audience of people with an IMAGINATION, Amateurist. Or at least with a sense of humor. Both of which count you out.

chuck, Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:19 (twenty years ago) link

yeah well keep on rocking dude

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:24 (twenty years ago) link

I also prefer a readership of people who WANT to consider the music they've heard in a different light, who WANT to reconsider their prejudices. Which you have no interest in at all, as far as I can tell. So if something doesn't jive with what you already believe, you get really upset and dismiss it it "hyperbolic" or "overstated." Which is the only explanation you can think of, I guess. Which is sad.

chuck, Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:25 (twenty years ago) link

(Wow...So much for my "don't get in any more pissing contests with idiots" resolution. Oh well. There's always next year.)

chuck, Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:28 (twenty years ago) link

yes chuck you're really striking one for the revolutionaries. down with prejudice! words like brickbats!

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:31 (twenty years ago) link

my point was that your self-styled home truth about black and white music has been a canonical truth of rock criticism for decades...

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:32 (twenty years ago) link

...so there's little need to shout it at your audience as if they've never encountered it and need it explained in the most manichean terms to comprehend it.

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:33 (twenty years ago) link

but you never seem to take criticism so what's the use?

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:33 (twenty years ago) link

like i said, keep on rocking.

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:34 (twenty years ago) link

Where did I "shout as if they'd never encountered it," Amateurist? Because I mentioned certain acts who mix rap and country? How the hell is that "shouting"? And where did I say that I was the first person to claim white and black musics are connected? Why do the hell do you keep imagining these things??

chuck, Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:37 (twenty years ago) link

why don't you calm down jesus

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:38 (twenty years ago) link

I take criticism from people who actually make points about my ideas, Amateurist. When you actually start reading what I write, I'll start listening to what you have to say you about it. But in the scores of of threads where you've buzzed around my ear like a little fly, you've NEVER listened to my ideas. And you probably never will.

chuck, Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:42 (twenty years ago) link

i read what you wrote upthread, which is what i was responding to.

what ideas anyway chuck? that charlie daniels is rap?

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:44 (twenty years ago) link

ok that was a cheap shot you have other ideas, sorry

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:44 (twenty years ago) link

That makes one of us.

chuck, Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:46 (twenty years ago) link

i don't want to make this about The Life and Work of Chuck Eddy anyway, i was simply responding to what i took to be excessive hyperbole and pedanticism in your posts above.

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:47 (twenty years ago) link

wow i hope in your job as an editor you aren't so quick to anger

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:47 (twenty years ago) link

actually never mind, i'm sure youre not that way, that's what ilm is for i suppose

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:48 (twenty years ago) link

i guess i have to admit a certain amazement though that a very well known editor and writer should have such poor rhetorical skills and resort largely to ad hominem attacks under his own name on a message board. i guess you have a lot of balls is one way to interpret it.

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:49 (twenty years ago) link

i guess on one hand i'm sorry i raised your blood pressure, but on the other hand it wasnt even my intention-- its something that seems to happen easily if ilm is any evidence.

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:50 (twenty years ago) link

haha i'm like a seesaw here, i'll take a break sorry folks

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:51 (twenty years ago) link

haha i've just given you and some other folks a whole bunch of rope, please, have some

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:53 (twenty years ago) link

Beatles in general weren't much into country, but Ringo Starr was and still is a big country fan.

Geir Hongro (GeirHong), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:56 (twenty years ago) link

never have i been so glad to see geir. actually i've never been glad to see geir at all until now.

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 22:57 (twenty years ago) link

Amateurist, if somebody baits me I will bite back--if I'm in the mood for it (and especially if I'm procrastinating from getting work done, and if I've had a shitty week). But if you honestly believe your bullshit about "it wasn't even my intention" to rile me up, compare my conversations with you on this board (EVERY conversation I've ever had with you, just about) to my conversations with, well, just about anybody else. Hell, compare my conversation with you on this thread to my conversation with Clarke. Big difference, isn't there? You always object to HOW you perceive me saying things (though you can never pinpoint this "how" when pressed); what I actually say is immaterial to you. And no, I've never had this kind of argument with my any of my writers, either -- though I do argue with my writers a lot, all the time. It's fun, and most of them seem to think so, too. But with them, like with Clarke above, I'm arguing about ideas. Not about my (or their) right to have them, or to express them.

chuck, Sunday, 7 December 2003 23:10 (twenty years ago) link

yes chuck i'm telling you not to have ideas or to express them. please stock them under the bed right away.

the jungle gym btw is just past the basketball courts on the right.

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 23:13 (twenty years ago) link

Are you insulting jungle gyms???

Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 7 December 2003 23:18 (twenty years ago) link

yeah jungle gyms and their manichean rhetoric fuck 'em

amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 7 December 2003 23:19 (twenty years ago) link

Actually, the Manichean ones are "monkey bars," but what the hell.

chuck, Sunday, 7 December 2003 23:25 (twenty years ago) link

I got Montgomery Gentry's "Carryin On" today. I'm only halfway through it .. While I don't dislike it - it seems like pretty standard country - not really anything all that interesting in it, musically.

Some of the lyrics are interesting though, when juxtaposed next to Chuck's earlier comments:

Yes, I've been to the South -- it's largely SUBURBAN these days. Or a LOT of it is. The region is not only populated by hillbillies with stills who've never left their hills or their farms (or, you know, Klansmen with gun racks and Confederate flags on their pickups). It's pretty cosmopolitan. Why shouldn't country reflect that? And the artist-vs.popstar dichotomy is a false one; it means nothing to me, in this or any other kinda music. I have no idea what you mean by it.
-- chuck (cedd...), December 5th, 2003 2:03 PM.

Put against:

"Some kids grew up on mean streets
Dealin' with the crips and bloods
But me I was born on a back road
In a 4X4 rollin' through the mud

The street kid deals with the dealer
And he's always watchin' his back
Me, I'm watchin' a line, with a woman of mine
Down by the creek bank shack

Give me .308 and a shotgun
And a gallon of homemade wine
Drop me off on a mountainside
Where the bear and the deer reside
I'll spend my nights sittin' round the fire
Makin' this guitar ring
I'll be doin' fine underneath the pines
While the world goes down the drain

Just to dwell on life in the city
Is makin' my blood run cold
'Cause miles and miles of concrete
Eats away at the human soul

When you live and die in the country
There's a little that your heart can mourn
With your hands in the dirt and a little work
You can weather out any storm

Give me .308 and a shotgun
And a gallon of homemade wine
Drop me off on a mountainside
Where the bear and the deer reside
I'll spend my nights sittin' round the fire
Makin' this guitar ring
I'll be doin' fine underneath the pines
While the world goes down the drain

I'll be doin' fine underneath the pines
While the world goes down the drain "


..Anyway, should I continue trying to find reasons to listen to Montgomery Gentry? I was expecting them to "challenge" me. And they're just kinda ... there.

More inspirational lyrics:
"And no one's gonna tell me
How to live my life
'Cause it's my life
And it ain't nobody's business
What kind of flag I fly
'Cause that's my right "

..yawn.

dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 8 December 2003 17:30 (twenty years ago) link

I mean, other than "Rocking Hard" (and I'm not saying they don't .. mostly) I haven't really read much explaining what the appeal is.


..OK Too Hard to Handle .. Too Free To Hold rocks out at the end.. Kind of a long wait though...

dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 8 December 2003 17:45 (twenty years ago) link

"Cold One Comin' On" is the best song, Dave; somewhere around here I have my Pazz and Jop comments from a couple years ago about it, but damned if I know whether I can track them down in the near future. And you're right -- they're not fond of Suburbia (despite frequent '80s AOR production), or at least they make a point of saying they aren't; in fact, when Dean made his Confederate flag gaffe, I thought of them immediately. Which no, does not make me want to invite them over for dinner. Rocking hard may well BE their main appeal (though the rocking is in the stomp of their rhythm and in their hard-assed voices, not just in their guitars. The album you have (the 2nd one) is their best. And, almost as much as Toby Keith, they can be absolute assholes. Obviously. Anyway, I doubt I'll have time to write a treatise on the album today, but here's Keith Harris:

>>>Hot-shit duo Montgomery Gentry are more traditionally manly—on Carrying On (Columbia), they work a hybrid variation on the demented wildass abandon of Hank Jr. and the compulsively regretful hell-raisin' of Waylon. "She Couldn't Change Me" is about an uppity honey what gets sick of Montgomery "sittin' on the porch in my overalls" and hits the road. But the pull of his scruffy country charisma is just too strong—she turns around and heads back in the end. Just to be fair, though, the second-catchiest thing here, four tracks later, turns the tables. When Montgomery hooks up with a gal who's "Hellbent on Saving Me," he winds up on his knees, asking the Lord to change him "just enough" (rhymes with "to keep her love").

Being a tough redneck in the New South means never having to crack a joke, but the guitars here clang hard enough to propel MG past the tight-assedness of their models. The title track is as hard a Skynyrd shuffle to make it past Today's Country's squeamish quality control. (Protests Gentry, "It ain't nobody's business what kind of flag I fly." " 'Cause that's my right," Montgomery chimes in.) Granted, "Ramblin' Man" isn't an Allmans cover and wouldn't necessarily be any more welcome if it were, but "My Father's Son" is a dynamite sequel of sorts to last year's class-conscious hit "Daddy Won't Sell the Farm." Now that Paw has literally bought the farm, Gentry's got to fight off the foreclosure. And "Cold One Comin' On" tweaks a great trope, referring to either a barroom brew or an empty bed, and to heartbreak either way.<<<

Here's Frank Kogan on the followup album (like me, he named *Carrying On* his album of the year in 2001; I believe that like me, too, he now thinks he underrated the followup):

>>On the first track of Montgomery Gentry's first album, these c&w whiners instructed us not to judge them until we'd walked in their shoes, while showing no interest themselves in what it's like to walk in anyone else's. On the title track of the new Our Town they tell us significantly that their local Church of Christ is well attended, but they make no mention of any mosques or synagogues and presumably wouldn't want to know the Mideast ancestry of their twang. But their music isn't content to just rock back on its reactionary haunches; instead, it filches rock 'n' roll "na-na-nas" and AOR harmonies and Mexican melodies and wicked slide guitars from near anybody's palette. Montgomery Gentry are not as rambunctious and obnoxious this time, to their musical if not moral detriment, but nonetheless they rock harder than you do.<<

Here's Joshua Clover/Jane Dark on a song from their FIRST album:

>>Daddy Won't Sell the Farm," by rawhide traditionalists Montgomery Gentry—one of whom is the brother of c&w softie John Michael Montgomery—is rilly a lovely vision of how Papa bought this farm back in 1968 and won't sell to the big concerns, so he struggles on with his rustic lifestyle in the shadow of minimalls and burger joints. It nestles comfortably in the tradition of Small Farmer vs. Big Corporation songs, and the larger tale of the Indomitable Rube vs. Evil Modernization/Urbanization—it even quotes Hank Jr.'s "A Country Boy Can Survive," the genre's demented flag-bearer.

And yet, how bizarre. This isn't one of those "We been here since the Civil War and we were born rebels" tales. Cuz daddy "worked and slaved" for the man, till he had enough to leave the system and cop some rustic peace in the very year that students and workers were tearing up paving stones from Paris to Iowa.

There are no coincidences in country music (check that cloying chain-of-life song about a guy who stops to change some lady's flat). Daddy is the first country hero as far as I know who's an openly political hippie. Cuz you just don't choose '68 when writing this song unless the guy's part of the Back to the Land movement. Pop's a folk hero alright, but not a hero for the Dukes of Hazzard so much as the Woodstock nation. This is akin to a hip-hop song making common cause with cops. Except cops actually are dirty and antisocial.<<

Those may or may not help; I'm not sure. I hope they do, though.


chuck, Monday, 8 December 2003 18:13 (twenty years ago) link

And hell, for fairness's sake, here's Robert Christgau, who has no use for them (and who likes a whole lot more alt-country than Joshua, Frank, or I do, by the way) (incidentally, speaking of alt-country, did you ever hear of Elizabeth McQueen and the Fire Brands? They come from Austin, and say they're doing "pub rock," but I like THEIR new album a lot. It's got a real rock'n'roll throb to it -- reminds me of early new wave rockabilly era Carlene Carter or Rosanne Cash. Nice.)


>>>MONTGOMERY GENTRY Carryin' On (Columbia) A tuneful, hard-hitting case study in the conservatism of the "rock" claimed by studio hotshots wherever popular music is manufactured in our once-great land. It's possible to imagine the identical beats and licks vitalized by, say, a younger John Anderson. But mixing them with male chauvinist reaction makes more sense, and turns them rancid. At a time when female spunk has become a Nashville cliché, these two putative roadhouse rats, one the brother of cowboy-hat millionaire John Michael Montgomery, inhabit a world where women are either saintly or compliant. They "rock" because they're "rebels," only what they rebel against is the present, in male-specific terms: "They say this way of life is done/But not for my father's son." Like their antecedent Charlie Daniels, they beg the question of whether they're also that kind of rebel. But attention ought be paid another high-profile couplet: "It ain't nobody's business what kind of flag I fly/'Cause that's my right." Uh-uh, stupid. The way flags work is that they're the business of everybody who sees them. That's why you fly them high—and why the other side tears them down. B MINUS<<

chuck, Monday, 8 December 2003 18:19 (twenty years ago) link

I guess lyrics are secondary to me... If a review isn't talking (non-specifically) about how they rock out, it's quoting how the lyrics are rebellious, chauvinistic, etc.. Which is a big part of country music, granted. But their lyrics are also very literal, which isn't necessarily a bad thing, but when I think "challenging" I think imagery or at least double entendre (which is HUGE in country music - but not much of it here.)

And musically challenging - I guess it's a matter of taste/preference - but I'm just not hearing a lot of surprises .... (read: dissonance, I think.)

So while they wouldn't send me running out of a BBQ in Georgia, they aren't likely to sell me any records either...

But thanks for the recommendation...

(Xpost)
"incidentally, speaking of alt-country, did you ever hear of Elizabeth McQueen and the Fire Brands? They come from Austin, and say they're doing "pub rock," but I like THEIR new album a lot. It's got a real rock'n'roll throb to it -- reminds me of early new wave rockabilly era Carlene Carter or Rosanne Cash. Nice"

..Thanks for that recommendation too..

dave225 (Dave225), Monday, 8 December 2003 18:29 (twenty years ago) link

Well, I'm not saying WHO they'd challenge. They challenged me, when I first heard them, because I was surprised that (despite it happening many times before) such stubborn reactionary mules of men with such apparent asshole politics could sound so GOOD, so open musically, and yeah -- this late in the game -- so HARD. I don't get how supposedly more clever or poetic lyrics (double entrendres, whatever) would make them more challenging; hell, if that's all you want, Nashville's still got plenty. (Rodney Atkins on maybe the sexiest song on his not-bad new album: "I ain't no kangaroo lawyer/But I will get you off.") I mean, the double entrendre thing sounds to me like some kind of version of the old directness is dumb/detachment is smart fallacy, which I've never bought. Montgomery Gentry's directness is PART of what makes them hard. (Then again, do you really not see the double meaning in "I feel a cold one comin' on"?, the darkest song to hit radio as far as I'm concerned in the winter after September 11?) Anyway. I'm curious: HOW does the kind of lyrical imagery you're referring to challenge you? It sounds to me like you're used to it and you take it for granted as something that oughta be there, which is hardly the same thing. (And as for musicial surprises, they're all over the place on that MG record, I think. Like what Kogan says about how "their music isn't content to just rock back on its reactionary haunches; instead, it filches rock 'n' roll "na-na-nas" and AOR harmonies and Mexican melodies and wicked slide guitars from near anybody's palette," but again, that was their followup album -- *Carrying On*'s got even *more* going on. Dissonance is hardly the point; rocking hard isn't the same as just rocking LOUD, and it never has been. "Louie Louie" outrocks anything Slipknot will ever do.)

chuc k, Monday, 8 December 2003 18:47 (twenty years ago) link

Willie Nelson is cool.

Jole, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 05:11 (twenty years ago) link

chuck i find this whole argt funny mainly coz i remember an argument i had with you about why "tracky" is an okay term. i guess in retrospect i coulda explained that being tracky is something music DOES.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 05:17 (twenty years ago) link

I don't know why this geezer chuck is attacking people all over the place. He ought to learn to count to 45 before posting.

I don't like the way that upthread he attacks Lloyd Cole and lots of country singers. LC is not really a country singer, of course, but I am tickled by the premise of the thread which is that he is.

I like some of the country singers that chuck attacked, plus some that he didn't, eg. Shania Twain whose recent 45s have excited me.

the twangfox, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 12:07 (twenty years ago) link

Hey The Pinefox! I like your New Name. A smashing debut!

Sarah (starry), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 12:11 (twenty years ago) link

Yeah - I don't really consider Lloyd Cole to be a country artist, or even an alt-country artist. But I think "Jennifer She Said" is a great country song, sans slide guitars. And I think that's the direction Country Music could be growing, rather than making pop records with slide guitars and twangy vocals.

HOW does the kind of lyrical imagery you're referring to challenge you
.. I don't like it just for the sake of it being there - I like it because if you have to think about the lyrics a little bit, you can interpret the lyrics to mean different things, many things. Sometimes that's not a good thing, if the artist wants to convey something specific - but most of the time, I get more out of a song where I'm able to personalize it to the way I visualize it.


Dissonance is hardly the point
..By dissonance, I mean (mostly) cognitive dissonance - i.e. something unexpected or unnatural.. but also musically dissonant - but that's just my personal preference.. That doesn't mean Slipknot...? (The chords in Louie Louie seem pretty dissonant to me.)

dave225 (Dave225), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 12:29 (twenty years ago) link

...40,41,42,43,44,45, whew! Okay:


>i coulda explained that being tracky is something music DOES.<<

Yeah, Sterl, but it's something ALL music does. That was my point!!

This geezer chuck, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 18:56 (twenty years ago) link

Beatles in general weren't much into country, but Ringo Starr was and still is a big country fan.

the beatles may not have been palling around with george jones, but they were much much much into the everly brothers and carl perkins, both of whom had a lot of country running through their veins.

fact checking cuz (fcc), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 19:24 (twenty years ago) link

(Chuck, whether one is a sociologist or not, if you start to use words to mean something other than what they normally mean, people may not understand what you are saying, or they may at least look at you funny.

Obviously a lot of people seem to go for it. I just don't demand that much creativity from a critic.)

Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 20:30 (twenty years ago) link

haha i don't want to start this argt. again chuck but saying that all "tracks" are "tracky" is like saying all "rock music" "rocks" (or that all "songs" are "songful".)

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 20:34 (twenty years ago) link

So Dave225, what do you hear that's unnatural or unexpected in alt-country? Again, I'm really curious. Because to me the look-at-us-we're-being-uncommercial-aren't-you-impressed-mom stance (and, hence, timidity) of so much of that music *negates* that I'll be surprised by what they do. Unless, you know, the Jayhawks did a song as catchy as Shania or somebody. If they rocked me, I'd be surprised (in fact, I'm still surprised when Nashville rocks me, too. It hasn't happened *that* open.) Maybe I'd be surprised if country suddenly got tracky!!

chuck, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 20:42 (twenty years ago) link

i.e., Confederate Railroad:
"I Like My Women Just a Little On the Tracky Side."

(Though I guess railroads are kinda tracky in the first place, maybe.)

chuck, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 20:44 (twenty years ago) link

(Confederate Railroad, by the way, are also the only band I know of ever to hit with a song about farting in church -- "The Big One," 1996 or so. Their later song "I Hate Rap" was nowhere near as good.)

chuck, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 20:47 (twenty years ago) link

their greatest hits disc
is always $2.99
at the discount store

Haikunym (Haikunym), Tuesday, 9 December 2003 20:49 (twenty years ago) link

>It hasn't happened *that* open< = That OFTEN, I meant.

Hardest rocking tracky country song ever:
"Train Kept a Rollin," Johnny Burnette and the Rock 'n' Roll Trio

chuck, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 20:51 (twenty years ago) link

>>their greatest hits disc is always $2.99 at the discount store<<


But that's obviously because everybody traded in their copies for this album, which has all the dance mixes!:

http://www.allmusic.com/cg/amg.dll?p=amg&uid=UIDCASS80311061622542118&sql=Awt9fs33la39g

chuck, Tuesday, 9 December 2003 20:54 (twenty years ago) link


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