Rolling R&B Thread 2010

^^really interesting theory. do you think it can be extrapolated to...pop generally? w/r/t the sounds that black pop artists are jumping on in order to maintain commercial success? also, is the whole "white audiences are more likely to d/l legally" simply socio-economics or are there other factors?

in other news i've got around to the mmts album and can't get enough of the last third or so of it, from "red lipstick" on, just gorgeous layered lushness. the backing vox on "doorbell"!!

i'd noticed that trend, and one of my poll thread ideas that i hadn't finished doing all the legwork for yet was recent R&B #1's with low Hot 100 peaks. i think it happens for different reasons -- sometimes it's a slow jam by a non-superstar like Melanie Fiona that just doesn't cross over to pop radio, sometimes it's someone like Trey or Usher who has a bunch of hits out at the same time on R&B radio, but pop radio just sticks with "Say Aah" or "OMG" etc.

here's a pretty crazy statistic: 6 of the 9 R&B chart-toppers in 2009 were top 10 pop hits; zero of the 8 R&B chart-toppers so far in 2010 have been top 10 pop hits.

I wonder if this crazy statistic some dude mentioned was with pre-Thriller early 80s r&b. People like to talk about the r&b ghetto that 80s r&b was in due to the disco backlash when apparently white US audiences were decrying any black artist singing a song with a beat and a bass guitar. Their may have been hits on the r&b charts but did not make a dent at all on the pop charts. It makes me wonder if the ghettoization of r&b is happening again.

I know that people will say that we have Beyonce, Rihanna, Ne-Yo, Trey Songz (to an extent), Usher and a few others, but it seems like their isn't a big foundation to support minor r&b stars like in the 90s. It's either go pop or die in the r&b ghetto. I know this has been the attitude of lates in a lot of blogs covering popular r&b who rather talk about chart statistics of an artists rather than the actual quality of the song. And if a song by a minor r&b star is received well they will say it won't go pop (meaning white people won't like it) so what is the point liking the song.

On the other hand, I don't think r&b fans can give a shit about a song crossing over but with pop and dance elements being more prevalent in r&b artists songs I wonder if they will implicitly think "it must go pop or die" when they hear a new song. Excuse me for rambling but this has been on my mind ever since the 2008 or so.

Another thought is if popular r&b shifts back to a more traditional sound (or at least retro 90s style), will the pop audience grab on to it or will they seek more pop/dance voraciously? Would this cause the Beyonces and Rihannas to be more pop (which is already starting to show with Rihanna)?

I think you're exaggerating wrt the "R&B ghetto" - artists like Monica, Fantasia, even somebody like Kem (who I point to as exemplary as this disconnect between R&B audience and the mainstream, since his album debuted at #2 behind Eminem with no major pop single/the support of Urban AC) have all managed to do very respectable numbers without any pop support whatsoever. Even someone like Keyshia Cole, who's only had 1 real crossover hit ("Let It Go"), manages to go platinum every time.I think the "R&B ghetto" is a better place to be than the "rap ghetto", comparatively, if you're not a crossover rap star you aren't selling shit at all (if you're lucky enough to even get a release date)

and yeah, I've noticed this trend for a while now and I actually am glad about it, because it kind of lets r&b artists make R&B without having to make concessions to pop radio. Monica's comeback is one of the year's biggest stories IMO and lays a really solid blueprint for others to follow.

Wait wow that Keyshia Cole song "Let it Go" was a crossover hit!!! I guess I need to start looking at Billboard charts more. I wasn't trying to exaggerate on the "r&b ghetto" concept. It's just something I've noticed when reading about r&b. Their seems to be so much emphasis on crossing over that I sometimes get confused.

In addition, I also noticed a mini trend of making r&b without concessions to pop radio with songs such as Amerie's "Why R U", Monica's "Everything to Me", and a few of Usher's r&b ballads in his latest album. Also, Mary J. Blige said she was going back to hear first two albums early sounds. But I honestly didn't know how well received this trend is going to be received.

And who the hell is Kem???

In addition, I also noticed a mini trend of making r&b without concessions to pop radio with songs such as Amerie's "Why R U", Monica's "Everything to Me", and a few of Usher's r&b ballads in his latest album. Also, Mary J. Blige said she was going back to hear first two albums early sounds. But I honestly didn't know how well received this trend is going to be received.

yeah definitely, also Jazmine Sullivan's two singles and Miguel's "All I Want Is" - all very 90s

And who the hell is Kem???

some guy who makes "grown folks" R&B. I don't listen to him at all but he has a very solid fanbase

Now that I googled him, I remember seeing him on The Mo'nique Show two days ago. His music is pretty bland if I can remember, but it is perfect for the demographic for her show. "Grown Folks" r&b is so perplexing to me. Is it hard to be sonically interesting while still being "grown?"

I think the problem is they're trying too hard to sound "grown & tasteful" and it just translates as boring. Grown folks r&b can be great when done well - Anita Baker, Phylis Hyman, Sade, Maxwell, Luther, etc. all work in a "grown & sexy" aesthetic i'd say.

I sometimes forget those people you mentioned are "grown and tasteful" because I don't think they are/were daunted with catering to that particular audience. They did what they wanted to do. The latest crop of "grown folk" r&b are very self conscious and it shows in their work. Their also is a economic class stigma attached to it as well.

go pop or die

Great album title.

dudez I made a mix of some of my fave r&b from 2010 so far... excuse all of the mistakes, I have no idea how to actually "mix" lol this is like my first time trying:

http://soundcloud.com/uploaderrr/dj-name-2010-r-b-mix

01. Ciara - I Run It
02. Omarion - Wet
03. Monica - Here I Am
04. The-Dream - Make Up Bag
05. RichGirl - Swagger Right
06. Ginuwine & James Fauntleroy - Disappeared
07. Shanell & Nicki Minaj - Cupid's Got A Gun
08. Trey Songz - Red Lipstick
09. Fletcher - Boom Cak
10. R. Kelly - Tongues
11. Range - Ghetto Dance
12. Teairra Mari & Mavado - Coinz
13. Lloyd - Let's Get It In
14. Miguel - All I Want Is You
15. Jazmine Sullivan - Holding U Down (Goin' In Circles)
16. Janelle Monae - Tightrope
17. Cee-Lo - You Don't Shock Me Anymore
18. K. Michelle - Can't Do This
19. John Brown - Sex On My Money
20. Aloe Blacc - I Need A Dollar

awesome

cool!

can't argue

i love the fantasia album, LOVE

Really really love the heightened showboating on this album. But then I am corn-bred fuxxx when it comes to Fantasia's voice.

I thought the album was kind of restrained for Fantasia honestly but yeah it is a great album! Not sure if i'd put it over her second one tho

What about "I'm Here"?

Really looking forward to hearing your mix by the way.

yeah she does kind of go overboard on that song lol (as is to be expected given the fact that it's from a broadway musical), but otherwise on songs like "Bittersweet, "Even Angels," "Falling In Love Tonight" she kinds of tones all of the hollering down. The live performances i've seen of "Bitter Sweet" and "I'm Doin Me" are a lot more showboaty than the recorded versions. I really MUST see her live I bet she puts on the greatest show

and thanks, don't hold the terrible "mixing" against me lol

yeah the fantasia album is pretty great, never got into her first two that much (hearing her trying to be sexy was...ugh)

great stuff brainwasher

out of stuff i hadn't heard, the ginuwine was really dope & that aloe blacc song is kinda O_O good

re: fantasia - yeah, to an extent she tones down the vocal showboating somewhat, but there's still this awesome generosity in the way she draws out certain words and just lets these melodies on melodies roll out luxuriously. "falling in love tonight" is a great example of this - you can imagine how in most hands it might be a somewhat bog-standard song, but fantasia draws you into it totally.

the piano line on "even angels" is sooo "wuthering heights"!

I know that people will say that we have Beyonce, Rihanna, Ne-Yo, Trey Songz (to an extent), Usher and a few others, but it seems like their isn't a big foundation to support minor r&b stars like in the 90s. It's either go pop or die in the r&b ghetto. I know this has been the attitude of lates in a lot of blogs covering popular r&b who rather talk about chart statistics of an artists rather than the actual quality of the song. And if a song by a minor r&b star is received well they will say it won't go pop (meaning white people won't like it) so what is the point liking the song.

i agree with all of this...i don't know, this weird separation between "r&b" and "pop", this is surely a recent development, right? or was it just coming of age in the turn-of-the-century sweet spot that makes me assume they shouldn't be that distinct? i'm not really talking about grown-and-sexy r&b or post-neo-soul - music for adults has always done its thing with less critical attention than music for the kidz; ciara's current situation exemplifies it for me, where she's visibly caught between being a pop star and an r&b star.

I think you're exaggerating wrt the "R&B ghetto" - artists like Monica, Fantasia, even somebody like Kem (who I point to as exemplary as this disconnect between R&B audience and the mainstream, since his album debuted at #2 behind Eminem with no major pop single/the support of Urban AC) have all managed to do very respectable numbers without any pop support whatsoever

maybe it's a big ghetto but it's a ghetto nonetheless - how much critical attention have monica and fantasia received? unless you're actually checking for them i'm guessing it's perfectly possible to be unaware they even have material out. from a uk perspective it's even worse of course - it took me SIX MONTHS to track down jazmine sullivan's UK PR, and when i did, he outlined the UK promo campaign as follows:

We’ll be releasing her album alongside the US on the 29th November, though just letting it become available no marketing or press push.

df'dopp[o9[ep0[e9rj'f;lnfnklcklncd WHAT IS THE POINT OF THAT.

is the monica album good btw? wasn't really keen on the lead single.

looking fwd to the mix btw. teairra mari and mavado together?!

"COINS" IS F'ING AMAZING why did no one tell me about this until now!!!

is the monica album good btw? wasn't really keen on the lead single.

looking fwd to the mix btw. teairra mari and mavado together?!

Hey Lex, the Monica album is a solid r&b album. If you are just looking for a singer singing in a direct 90s r&b style. I like it because she seems to finally restrain her voice which makes the texture of it all the richer. She is slowly competing against my preference of Brandy who has great texture to her voice but has limited range.

Oh btw, thank you lex for agreeing with me. I thought I was going crazy with observing this trend of r&b. It's creepy to me that their is this "need to go pop" sentiment that is becoming so prevalent. Maybe it has always been there in the r&b market, but it is more heigten due to the internet. Maybe it is driven by the recession and the music industry wants to have maximum profits on the few releases they have out. Their probably are sociological aspects with this sentiment as well.

The thing is though that until very recently, there wasn't a lot of music that was very definitely r&b rather than pop-qua-pop that was successful with crossover audiences but now it seems like nothing is splitting the difference. Why is that?

Maybe it has always been there in the r&b market, but it is more heigten due to the internet.

yeah r&b's always existed in this weird area whereby it's its own genre with its own rules and values - ie integrity - but that's also placed a premium on commercial success (and unlike hip-hop, which can get away with inward-facing localism, this generally means chart success and mainstream profile). so because it's so "pop" already, it rarely gets away with being viewed as "art" - ie, r&b artists are generally not forgiven by critics or fans for perceived commercial failures. (poor ciara.)

Maybe it is driven by the recession and the music industry wants to have maximum profits on the few releases they have out.

yeah, when this trend started to hit a couple of years ago it was easy to attribute it to the recession making labels taking an even more conservative, safety-first approach than they normally would.

also, the last few years have really seen pro-pop blogs entrench their values in the mainstream (where their idea of pop is a specific aesthetic rather than "what's in the charts") - from popjustice to perez hilton, broadly; and a LOT of them have a fit of the vapours every time anything that codes overtly black comes into view, like they'll get cooties from it. it's most obvious w/r/t their fear of rappers, but it also applies to any r&b star who's perceived to be not trying hard enough to be all happy and pop and shiny.

i'll check out the monica album btw.

oh yeah, i heard half the jazmine sullivan album today. wait'll you all hear "redemption", that song will blow you away. spoken word/rapped verses, one from a crack whore's perspective and one from a male domestic abuser's perspective, and an absolutely massive gospel chorus. there's also a mj-esque disco number called "don't make me wait" where she actually sings with restraint and subtlety (!). and a big retro-sounding ballad called "excuse me" where she does not, at all. looking good so far, basically.

very jealous of you right now, it sounds amazing

The thing is though that until very recently, there wasn't a lot of music that was very definitely r&b rather than pop-qua-pop that was successful with crossover audiences but now it seems like nothing is splitting the difference. Why is that?

― ENBBQ (The Reverend), Tuesday, October 12, 2010 2:42 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think there's a couple different things going on. one is that R&B is kinda going through the same thing as rap, where crossover-by-design artists like BEP, Flo Rida, B.o.B., etc. are making huge hits mostly via pop radio, urban radio might play it some or not but it doesn't live or die by that. the Jason DeRulo/Iyaz/Jay Sean etc. types kind of fill the niche in pop/top 40 playlists that Chris Brown or Ne-Yo might've 2-4 years ago without getting any R&B play, and seem to be descended from Akon and Rihanna, who sometimes get their hits all over urban radio but not always. combine that with some of the bigger all-the-way-R&B hitmakers either not doing super well or crossing over that much with their latest projects (Mary J, R. Kelly, The-Dream, the aforementioned Chris Brown and Ne-Yo) and some of the Beyonce-level stars being between albums. maybe in a year this will all have reversed completely, maybe the trend will keep going in that direction, I dunno.

oh yeah, i heard half the jazmine sullivan album today.

Wasn't there suppose to be a Vanity 6 tribute on that album? That was talked about like a year ago in press during the early stages of the album.

This thread = Skillz' annual "Rap up" song, but for R&B. I feel totally caught up and have been spared sifting through a lot of garbage to find the gems.

Fantasia (and I'm really no Fantasia fan) and Monica (albeit retro/vintage Monica) were the pleasant surprises of the year IMO.

I was looking forward to Marsha Ambrosious (Floetry), but they pushed it back to Jan. 2011.

Apart from the occasional bright spots, the only thing I can stand these days is so-called Neo soul / grown folks R&B -- for lack of a better classification:

>> Neo Soul artists

Ambrosius pushed back AGAIN?

bizarre -- "hey the single is on every station in the country, better push the release date back"

We’ll be releasing her album alongside the US on the 29th November, though just letting it become available no marketing or press push.

weird -- from my end, I'd have guessed Sullivan's new single would be a good fit with a lot of stuff that does well in the UK, especially with the way the vocal's treated

yeah i would have thought so too.

idk, retro in the uk seems to have to be that particularly ersatz, ronsonised style to pass muster on radio, not the cratediggery collage of the jazmine. and black US artists all vanish into an unpromoted void of soft releases and minimal press in the UK unless they're a) well-established or b) "go pop" in a really obvious way (see discussion above), whether that's b.o.b. getting soft-serve beats and rock singers on his hooks or the grim hell that usher's career has descended into.

fantasia and monica albums not promoted one iota over here either.

It's funny how Kelly Rowland has become the circa-2006 kings of leon r&b singer when it comes to us/uk fanbases

feeling this one

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tkje46ta_10

that is very dreamy and reverby

very nice

RIGHT does anyone out there have the og demo version of trina's "here we go" with teedra m on the hook instead of rowland? i ask this every few years and no one's come thru yet :(

yo "slow jam" is my shit !!!!!!!

production kinda reminds me of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvM6XK1hL6U

could do without lil keke tbh

who is charlene renee?