birth of the flattened cool: the origins of the indie voice?

pomo fiction for sure. i don't know poetry. who are some poets in that camp?

I certainly wasn't arguing for affectation - that conversation seems to be an offshoot of the original question - but rather for their arguable influence on a certain subsect of the indie population in the "anyone can sing" stakes.

Where did it start? In recorded music, I would say with the very first known recording, that of T.A. Edison reciting Mary Had a Little Lamb. Only his voice was cylindrical cool.

Good point, although I'd argue it goes back to Cheever and Carver.

-- gypsy mothra (meetm...), March 12th, 2006.

John Ashbery is one of the founders of that style in poetry, and I know Malkmus is/was a fan of his.

honestly, though, this exists in the western genre.

I personally feel the word "indie" needs to go though as it just confuses the whole lineage of rock. Indie-rock has always seemed to me to be just another name for underground rock or college rock from the 1960s through today. I think if we stopped changing the word around every fifteen years to describe the music scenes we could avoid all kinds of problems with where trends come from.

I think the "indie voice" can be be traced back to earlier ideas in 20th-century art. The way the voice is linked with both irony and earnestness is probably more directly influenced from another rock artist, though. I think the indie-rock voice and persona has two main godfathers. The first one would have to be the Velvet Underground. When one of the guys in Kraftwerk was asked what drew him to the band I remember him specifically talking about the Dada influence. Dada was a sort of anti-art movement in the 20th century that (from Wikipedia) "...was characterized by absurdism, nihilism, deliberate irrationality, disillusionment, cynicism, chance, randomness, and the rejection of the prevailing standards in art." Both the anti-singing style defined by Lou Reed and general punk rock or the superficially clever and fragmented lyrics by Stephen Malkmus and general indie-rock come to my mind. The idea behind anti-singing, anti-music and many other counter-culture ideas that we sometimes act as though just "popped up" in rock come from Dada.

*Another group Kraftwerk loves, The Ramones, are mentioned upthread as well for the indie-voice. Perhaps Kraftwerk saw the influences in both groups?

The second act that I think defines indie rock, and indirectly, the weak indie-voice, is different from the VU. While the Velvets might represent the Dark Side of Indie-Rock I think that Paul Simon epitomizes the lighter, collegiate side and a lot of the clever irony that bands aim for. It is no coincidence that Simon and Garfunkel was able to soundtrack one of the defining counter-culture films of the 1960s (The Graduate) and can still appear seamlessly in films with indie-rock soundtracks like the The Garden State.

Paul Simon is as much the godfather of indie-rock as Lou Reed is IMO. One of the biggest traits Paul Simon shares with indie-rock is the chief importance they both place on being clever.

It's not just Belle and Sebastian's dark irony about religion that comes to mind but also name dropping other pop stars and famous authors in songs (Donovan and Robert Frost) and the idea of "cleverly" sampling other songs (the way Simon samples the outro to Strawberry Fields Forever for the intro and outro to Fakin' It is the type of clever "get it?" reference that is a staple of indie-rock) comes from Simon. The type of humor Simon employs in songs like Me and Julio Down by the Schoolyard also strike me as being almost indie-like.

Still, irony is just one part of indie-rock. Another side of it is to be embarrassingly open i.e. emo, Bright Eyes, etc. Simon goes this route just as often of course (Only Living Boy in New York, Bridge Over Troubled Water, etc). Placing a high importance on cleverness and irony and mixing it up with embarrassing earnestness at other times is something that a lot of kids understandably do in college. I think Paul Simon was one of the first "modern" college kids to really have a voice in pop music and that indie-rock (being the music of choice for college kids) is naturally drawn to many of the same traits Simon had as a young man and popularized.

There are probably dozens of other influences but I feel these two are more immediate.

I think a lot of the personas have to do with the self-consciousness that comes with being a teenager/young adult and specifically in post-1950s America. Institutions like the family and the church and business were no longer places where collegiate intellectuals were going or wanted to go and so new personas were naturally going to be made by these kids.

Reed seems like more of a descendent of the Beats and their culture but Simon is interesting as he was one of the first people from that generation's pop music to popularize the now common way of hiding your genuine feelings (MASSIVE irony and sarcasm). But when Simon didn't use irony to hide any feelings he would be almost proto-emo ('I Am A Rock' for goodness sake).

Indie "heroes" like Dean Wareham are always tagged as Reed-followers but I think we see just as much of Simon's legacy in their work as we do a VU influence.

I mean, obviously he could belt it when he wanted to, and maybe for people who know him only by the somewhat grandiose "New York, New York", it might seem strange to think of him as understated, but that was, I think, the essence of his genius: that tough street-smart Hoboken wise-guy voice, always holding something back, the master of the off-the-cuff gesture, cosmopolitan and urbane - he could make any wide-eyed and innocent '50s love-song sound complex, grown-up and sexual - always in control, ironic, self-aware - in a word, cool.

"got hips like cinderella...

...

must be having a good shame

...

talking sweet about nothing

...

cookie, i think you're

...

TAME!!!"

Could I see that in German theater? Why not?

i'm glad there's already a thread about this. i just tried listening to a new 'indie'-pop thing with vocals for the first time in maybe a year? it was the new 'chromatics.' the music sounded nice but gah something about that voice just ruins everything for me. 'indie'-pop acts need to um ditch the self-learning thing and start focusing as much on singing as they do on production and synths or whatever. blech

like if you're gonna copy chilly, get the most important thing right

"as they do on production and synths"

production = flat dry digital recording into Protools
synths = softsynths they don't know how to use

haw

wait was that an insult to indie pop or chart pop? (really, I don't know)

indie pop

i had the same reaction to some of the after dark songs but i also get the indie thing. and i really like the album. i like indie cool when it's done well (i think the chromatics singer does it ok, not great). james murphy is very indie cool, but i like his vocals.

The thread seems to have been mainly about tracing back the elements of the indie-drawl. But its the combination that codifies the sound.

I'd suggest that its fair to call the originators of individual elements a 'precursor' but they aren't the origin of indie sound. Its when people start to mix the styles of Drake, Reed, Gilberto, Cohen, etc etc that you actually get the indie sound.

For instance Pavement may or may not have vocal styles which have a linage from 1950s beats, but that linage comes via Mark E Smith who is one of the originators as opposed to a precursor. I'd add in Edwin Collins, Paul Haig and maybe Howard Devoto/Pete Shelly as originator of a specific combinations.

Not so sure whether Patti Smith counts as the earliest originator, or a precursor, I'd probably put her just on the precursor side in my imaginary dividing line with the UK Smith-offspring - Slits, Raincoats, Au Pairs, Delta 5, Penetration on the other side as first origins.

Actually shocked Edwin Collins didn't get a mention in this thread already. He's the direct line via Stephen P to Stuart Murdoch.

... the "indie voice" (wish I could think of a better term for it) is very much in the world, but is somewhat removed from the songs themselves. Like, commenting on the distance between the (often) romantic nature of the songs and the unromantic realities of the world? -- spittle (spittle), Sunday, 18 April 2004 16:57 (3 years ago) Link

This is quite beautiful! And I think a big part of Malkmus style, it's not just plain ironic. Great thread.

Malkmus's vocal style isn't really indebted to Mark E. Smith at all. For one, he sings. Musically, of course Pavement took a lot from the Fall but we've had this discussion a hundred million times.

I don't really know very many artists who have a vocal style that resembles Mark E Smith. James Murphy vaguely, maybe.

The influence fell away, but Malkmus did do some E. Smith aping on early songs, especially "Two States", and referred to Slanted & Enchanted as sounding like the work of a Fall cover band.

For one, he sings

As does MES sometimes. Occasionally there is even a tune too.

Sure, there is plenty of examples where Malkmus is his own man, and isn't ever (well, hardly ever) a mere Fall tribute act, but to suggest there is no connection or indebtedness doesn't match what I can hear, or indeed what Ive read in interviews.

I still stand by hearing it only in the music and probably only three or four times in the singing, in their entire career.

I find it incredible how Ray Davies has yet to be mentioned here.

Yeah but you find a lot of the world incredible, don't you

Way too much. This thread lacks credibility. :)

chad & jeremy?
townes van zandt, when he wasn't self-consciously singing in a 'country' style.

i think i am just thinking chad & jeremy because they always remind me of B&S, but i don't think it's the voice that does it ...

Why All Indie Singers Sound Weirdly The Same