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FUCK EDITORS

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my fearless leader, so modest.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:29 (seventeen years ago) link

I didn't resent editing at first because I [i]needed it[/it] pretty badly until I had a few pieces under my belt. When you're 21 and writing your first stuff for magazines and alt-weeklies (which is, uh, right now for me), and all you've written until now were pieces for your school paper (or whatever), (good) editors are like a godsend--people who actually can tell you how to improve your writing!

But even when you're a bad (or at least novice) writer, you can tell who bad editors are, and you hate them because you know you could do their job.

― max, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:33 (seventeen years ago) link

we're all faking it anyway

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:37 (seventeen years ago) link

And ugh, I hate it when things are added to my shit, and it goes double for jokes (even good ones!) because it seems like such a Hollywood thing (like Nabisco was saying)--"Yr piece wasn't funny enough so we PUNCHED IT UP." Taking out is fine though since I tend to be long-winded and have trouble figuring out what parts aren't good enough to stay (since I'm usually too obsessively protective of my stuff).

― max, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:37 (seventeen years ago) link

my life is like that kids in the hall sketch where dave's giving a report at work and thinking in voiceover "when are they going to realize that i have no idea what i'm talking about?"

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:39 (seventeen years ago) link

ha ha ha ha isn't that sort of everyone's life though? or are there people who are really that confident abt what they do?

― max, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:39 (seventeen years ago) link

(the only kind of job i could have that i would truly be confident about would involve playing smash brothers and masturbating in some way)

― max, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:41 (seventeen years ago) link

"this is it! this is the moment i've been waiting for!"

"hey, great job dave."

"damn it!"

― strongohulkington, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:41 (seventeen years ago) link

The important part is "people who can TELL you how to improve your writing," as opposed to "people who 'improve' your writing during the five minutes they spend reading it." People who explain stuff are great: when Keith Harris was at the Chicago Reader, he spent like half an hour giving me a terrific phone edit on a piece that wasn't even close to being able to run.

I spend a lot of time trying to think of hypothetical situations where punch-ups could cause major ethical problems, but they're all along the lines of editors adding stuff like "her voice is buttery but meaty, like lobster," and then the writer coming back with "DAMN YOU I KEEP KOSHER AND NOW MY MOM'S REALLY MAD AT ME."

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:51 (seventeen years ago) link

It's also a weird admission of failure on the editor's part -- that they couldn't find a writer to hand over something they'd find workable as-is, or that they couldn't coach, edit, or steer the writer into the kind of shape they wanted. If a good editor wants a piece to be, say, funnier, probably the ideal is to have a writer you can call and say "make it funnier" and get results.

Yes. In a perfect world, an editor cultivates a wonderful stable of writers: the funny person, the folk expert, the pop lover, the hip-hop master, and so on. But that's not always the case, especially when you're editing for a publication that's not, shall we say, the New Yorker. Yes, the goal to good editing -- or so it seems -- is to have most of the editing done before you even sit down to edit, if that makes any sense.

However, when you have too many deadlines to meet and too much copy to churn out, sometimes coaching and steering can be counter-productive. Sometimes, you try out a writer who can't or doesn't want to be steered or coached. But at the same time, they can at least get you something that's better than waiting on the really talented person who can't meet a single deadline. Sometimes, you just have to choose your battles: certain writers are worth seriously intense editing and others you basically rewrite their stuff. And sometimes things just fall apart because that how the universe works.

It really kinda sucks.

― QuantumNoise, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:53 (seventeen years ago) link

otm.

honestly sometimes i have to whip copy into shape and i don't have time for a formal lesson. i'd never add any idea that wasn't originally in the text but i have no problem with cleaning and clarifying.

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:55 (seventeen years ago) link

also i would DEFINITELY never add funny.

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:57 (seventeen years ago) link

Nabisco, did you do a lot of of those phone edits? That's something I've never experienced. Not to sound ignorant, but what can be accomplished in a phone edit that can't be with notes? Is it basically a conversation about the piece? It sounds like something that could help me and my writers.

― QuantumNoise, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 19:58 (seventeen years ago) link

i had an editor who would call me about every word-substitution and comma change. it drove me crazy.

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:00 (seventeen years ago) link

in my recent experience, AIM edits are pretty awesome. I mean, you can say "fuck no" to a suggestion, but then a smiley face emoticon softens it a bit.

― fukasaku tollbooth, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:03 (seventeen years ago) link

more ignorance: AIM?

― QuantumNoise, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:06 (seventeen years ago) link

african information ministry.

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:07 (seventeen years ago) link

they vet a lot of copy and they LOVE emoticons.

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:08 (seventeen years ago) link

aol instant messenger perhaps?

― fukasaku tollbooth, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:12 (seventeen years ago) link

more ignorance: AIM?

/tuomos

― deej, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:15 (seventeen years ago) link

i see. i've never even used aol!

― QuantumNoise, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:15 (seventeen years ago) link

I haven't done many phone edits, no. I think they're most useful with large features that are still fairly early in their development, and still open to really deep re-shaping and re-framing -- it's more of a "developing a piece" thing than an "editing the product" one. It's just nice that the editor can say something like "I think we need more concrete information about the artist's history," and the writer can respond -- "I was thinking about doing that at the beginning, but do you think the piece would kick off too boring that way?" It also means the editor can ask after things: "I like this idea, is that something you could pull out more? Which do you think is more important, this angle or that one?" And in the conversation it's quite likely that the writer will say something outside of the piece that the edit can jump on ("run with that idea!") or vice versa. All of which can get done nicely via AIM, too, sure, though the short lines of IM conversations might hold back exactly the kinds of long texty comments that are important here.

Hahaha this is a dumb and unrealistic thing to say, but I feel like if a publication doesn't attract writers the editor really likes, and the editor doesn't have time to work with them to get better product, then they should just admit it and publish whatever "sub-par" product they're getting! (And if the editor's such a better writer than his/her hires and has time to go through and rewrite sections of their reviews, then that person should just write more reviews flat out.) I mean, the kinds of sense-editing / copyediting / cleaning-up / tightening / reorganization Slocki's talking about -- helping the writer mean what they mean -- are totally the editor's whole purpose and job, but when you're actively punching up the prose and inserting ideas, you're just covering for the fact that you find your publication's product inferior and unacceptable.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:18 (seventeen years ago) link

wow, why didn't I see the success of this revive coming?

Amazed to see who some of the writers here are; "God bless editors" next.

― Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:24 (seventeen years ago) link

Did I miss the "yeah man, they're just ripping off Interpol" joke?

― jaymc, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:26 (seventeen years ago) link

i can see a simple telephone call really helping out, especially, as you say, in the formative stages. i have a feeling writers tune out the notes when they get too long, which happens when dealing with the very basics of an article.

― QuantumNoise, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:29 (seventeen years ago) link

To: N!ck Southall
Subject: Kaiser Chiefs edit

Any residual humor from their debut is mercilessly replaced with BLOSSOMS INTO the kind of depthless REFRESHING sincerity that British rockers all suffer from SO SORELY LACK today. There’s simply no charm or subtlety on show here, and not even any in cheeky, bona fide pop thrills in the vein of “Everyday I Love You Less & Less.” It’s this relentlessness that’s the worst thing about Yours Truly, Angry Mob—even when they try and do a ballad on “Love Is Not a Competition (But I’m Winning)” the melody is so forced that it completely fails to scan A FORCE OF NATURE. Awful Song titles, awful songs, awful production, awful sentiments; this album is pretty close to disgustingLY GOOD. It makes my skin crawl HAIR STAND ON END. I can only hope that the title and lyrics of “Everything Is Average Nowadays” are deeply, deliberately ironic, BECAUSE THIS IS AWESOME.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:30 (seventeen years ago) link

morbz clarify?

(ha or i'll clarify FOR YOU)

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:32 (seventeen years ago) link

ZOMG CONFESSION: I'm a phone edit virgin. The one time I wrote for CE @ the Voice, I was assuming / kinda hoping he'd give me a buzz so we could go over my piece & he'd help me become The Greatest Thing Ever. But the dude just said, "Hey, nice work!" & that was that.

OK really I just wanted someone to call me. ;_;

― David R., Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:46 (seventeen years ago) link

nev mind s1ocki; once again Search has led me into ILM unknowingly.

― Dr Morbius, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 20:54 (seventeen years ago) link

http://www.greentourism.ca/images/Newsletter/Summer%2005%20Newsletter/The%20Enchanted%20Forest.jpg

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 21:01 (seventeen years ago) link

see I was hoping this would be like the "fuck a creationist" thread.

― Alex in Baltimore, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 21:19 (seventeen years ago) link

For short pieces I like SMS (mobile texting) edits better than IM because you have more time to respond and think it over, also it's not free and both parties have to keep it short so you don't invite further editing at the drop of a ctrl-v.

― blunt, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 21:30 (seventeen years ago) link

i prefer semaphore

― s1ocki, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 21:31 (seventeen years ago) link

i used to edit via smoke signals but then i went blind

― max, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 21:33 (seventeen years ago) link

(something about stone engraving)

― blunt, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 21:37 (seventeen years ago) link

I once did an edit by carrier pigeon, but then when the review ran it was all about how doves are brainless prettyboys who can't hack it in the big city.

― nabisco, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 22:18 (seventeen years ago) link

They've never made an album as good as Lost Souls, either.

― jaymc, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 22:21 (seventeen years ago) link

This is all really interesting and informative. Now everyone tell who's looking for pitches.

― DM, Wednesday, 28 February 2007 23:54 (seventeen years ago) link

Wait, that wasn't supposed to sound snappy.

― DM, Thursday, 1 March 2007 00:02 (seventeen years ago) link

The lesson of this thread seems to be that Keith Harris was the best editor imaginable. And now he's in law school. Sigh.

― Matos W.K., Thursday, 1 March 2007 05:15 (seventeen years ago) link

the thing that came to bug me about editing when I was rockcrit/feature writer was the editors' underlying -- subconscious? -- lack of respect for the writing. whether it was an alt-weekly in-house genius brow-beating you over word choices w/the ultimate goal of having you write just like him or a slick magazine editor deploying passive-aggressive tactics and adding extra stars to insure a positive review, usually I wound up feeling compromised in some vague unsettling way, a unwitting conduit for consensus opionion.

OTOH when I edited feature stories for that greying counterculture rag there was a lot of pressure to cut the stories to fit the layout (never vice versa!) and the word count was ALWAYS something different than what had been assigned and this process would take place at the 11th hour w/basically no time to contact the author. So people had to trust me, and while I'd like to think they got good clips out of the deal I know my draconian surgery often felt like amputation. I never added my own language or thoughts, that was beyond the pale.

Over time I could see the rise of the cult of the editor, the angle and attack of feature stories increasingly came to be decided by the editors in endless meetings rather than in consultation w/the writer. "How do you want to do this?" became replaced by "Who should we get to do this?"

Editing reviews was a whole other nightmare, fraught with office and record company politics. Ugh.

Interestingly being edited on my book and on book reviews is a dream compared to all this, it's all about honing your ideas and arguments, not advancing somebody else's agenda. in the end we need editors!

― m coleman, Thursday, 1 March 2007 11:33 (seventeen years ago) link

one year passes...

aaarrrggghhh

I am really REALLY sensitive / suspicious about the idea of editors adding stuff you didn't write ...

― nabisco, Wednesday, February 28, 2007 2:08 PM (1 year ago) Bookmark

― nabisco, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:41 (fifteen years ago) link

Always think this thread is gonne be about the band.

― Helsinki Is Other People (Noodle Vague), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:43 (fifteen years ago) link

is this the thread where we welcome nabisco to the uk newspaper industry then?

― joe, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:46 (fifteen years ago) link

this is the thread where I resign from the UK newspaper industry in protest

― nabisco, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:47 (fifteen years ago) link

I would like to note that I have lots of sensitive feelings, as well as episodes of suspicion, regarding this concept: that some editors may be adding extra words or even information to articles that I have written and submitted. I worry that they could add typografical errors or grammatical awkwardness that could reflect poorly upon me, or even add information that goes against my personal beliefs. More later, as I'm off to my NAMBLA meeting now.

― nabisco (n/a), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:47 (fifteen years ago) link

loooooooooooooooool

― Lots of praying with no breakfast! (HI DERE), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:48 (fifteen years ago) link

hey, 'bisco. take a deep breath, look at the big picture, you'll be fine.

― J0hn D. (Whiney G. Weingarten), Friday, 27 February 2009 16:50 (fifteen years ago) link

^^ good advice, totally true, and it only took a cup of coffee to get over it, but yeah, this thread deserves bumping now and again -- it can be frustrating!

― nabisco, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:54 (fifteen years ago) link

nabisco, that's happened to me more than a few times over the years! at a certain point i just turned off the "care" switch, i guess.

this thread = eternally classic, mostly for ethan's bile.

― Beatrix Kiddo, Friday, 27 February 2009 16:58 (fifteen years ago) link

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