Does anyone still shop at HMV?

I mean MOST record stores in Copenhagen are shit.

Last time I was in Oxford St. HMV I was looking for a particular Sublime Frequencies release that was out of stock in my usual scouting places...and they had it!

Mind you, that was about five years ago. Haven't had a reason to go back since.

HMV Group said it would miss analysts’ expectations for full-year pre-tax profits of £45m because of a continued “challenging” trading conditions, sending its shares down more than 20 per cent.

The embattled music and entertainment retailer also warned it was in danger of breaching its banking covenants by June, its year-end, as debt climbed to at least £130m.

The company is already in talks with its lenders, it said in a trading update on Tuesday, and hopes to make changes to the agreement that will “ensure its appropriateness for future trading conditions and to support delivery of the group’s strategy”.

Analysts were more surprised by the debt figure than the difficult trading. It was “significantly higher than expected”, said Kate Calvert at Seymour Pierce. HMV blamed changes to its product mix and other working capital movements.

Shares in HMV fell 4¼p to 16½p in early London trading, a fresh 52-week low. The stock has lost more than three-quarters of its value over that period.

In other words, the closing down sale in May promises to be worth a browse.

Death of another full-price retailer. I've no sympathy at all.

I think that attitude stinks TBH. One - HMV discount all the time. Two - it plays a vital role in the British music market:

http://www.nme.com/blog/index.php?blog=146&p=9604&title=think_hmv_s_downfall_is_a_victory_for_th&more=1&c=1

I don't understand people who think their God-given right to cheap music is the only thing that matters.

'God-given right'? When HMV was operating here there was always a retailer virtually next door that undercut HMV by <15% and had at least twice the stock.

HMV complain about adverse trading conditions, how it's cheaper to buy online rather than in their shops.

That trader that operates out of Guernsey, pays/charges no VAT is mostly to blame. HMV Online.

That's where my own personal "no sympathy" lies.

Yeah, its now the only physical mainstream cd shop in Galway. Every other non-second hand outlet or folk specialist is gone, or having a final clearance sale.
& HMV have Mojo & Uncut a Euro cheaper than elsewhere.

Think it's going to be Amazon marketplace etc for me until I have no credit card. Wider choice of material. Since Mulligan's here closed there hasn't been much interest in keeping physical record shops going.

What I mean is I can understand irritation with HMV back when there were lots of independent alternatives around but now that it's one of the few bricks-and-mortar places standing (plus it saved Fopp and owns Waterstones) I find the casual "fuck 'em" attitude pretty repellent. I don't relish doing 100% of my entertainment shopping online - I'm weird like that.

@MarkG - do you think HMV's prospects would be better if they didn't compete with Amazon online? A record store owner I know told me recently that every shop he knows survives because of its online arm. If they took your advice they'd already be dead.

Nice to see you here Stevo, been years since the Watt list!

I stopped buying at the shops a long time ago, mostly because I couldn't find what I wanted - and not for lack of trying. The one exception was Road Records in Dublin; I didn't shop there anything like regularly but the staff were/are super friendly and couldn't be more helpful, not your High Fidelity types at all. Shame they had to close down last year.

It's not my "advice" at all, it's more the idea they are presumably telling their staff (or going to) that they make redundant, "sorry, it's the internet", etc.

Back whenever it was, HMV was a very small number of large shops where you could 'discover' stuff, now its a huge pile of Lady Gaga behind some t-shirts.

They (i.e. the shops) certainly won't survive if all they try to do is 'resemble' the front of their internet operation.

last time i was in it was all dvds + some sale cds that are always the same. Really shit "specialist" sections and the shop is really really bad for back catalogue (how i measure how good a record shop by). 4 floors of sod all

HMV did really used to be so much better for back cat. I worked on and off at the Grafton St branch between 2000 and 2004. When I started the managers at the time had a lot more free reign to stock as they pleased (I remember a free-standing unit filled with the Neu! reissues that had just come out, the result of a discussion in the pub a few days before).

But over time head office started taking more control. Staff recommendations on the end-on units disappeared and more space was sold to labels to push whatever shite they were peddling. Back cat orders dwindled and more space was made in the pockets for 'chart'. And the playlist was homogenised (not that it ever resulted in any sales increase, whereas before when we could play what we liked - within reason - we'd always flog a few of whatever was on). When I left sales were still strong, but it was clear DVDs were selling better than music - within a year or two, the store had allegedly started making a loss.

now that it's one of the few bricks-and-mortar places standing (plus it saved Fopp and owns Waterstones) I find the casual "fuck 'em" attitude pretty repellent.

Brick-and-mortar isn't as viable as it used to be. No I don't relish paying extra so that some arbitrary middlemen can handle the geographic delay, distribution, warehousing, freight, shop rental and shelf space when I can get it cheaper elsewhere. I'm not made of money, I don't intend to be splashing it amongst the myriad companies that have managed to protectionism themselves into a redundant supply chain.

We've just watched a majority slab of our brick-and-mortar bookshops (the company that runs Borders and A&R) fall to administration and very possibly extinction. Do I care? No, because I don't have an emotional attachment to massive book chains staffed by random yoof who couldn't tell me shit about literature. Meanwhile the few thriving independents offer such great service and heart-felt recommendations that people don't mind paying full price because they're getting actual service.

I'll give you another beautiful example. There was a Doobie Brothers greatest hits that came out sometime around 2003 or 2004. Big marketing campaign for it, all over the TV. Sure enough, Saturday came and at least 10 people came up to me alone looking for it. But did we have it in stock? Did we fuck.

I don't know whether it was the fact that central ordering was making the local managers myopic or what, but when you're running a major music chain store and you don't have something that was advertised widely on its release weekend, you're doing something wrong.

yesterday i popped into the bristol shop to check up on an item : the new demdike stare triple cd set.
amazingly they had it in : £22
i flinched.
checked amazon for a new copy : £14.99
if it had been only a couple of quid difference i would have gone to hmv for it, but £7 is one helluva percentage difference.

xpost That's interesting. OTOH, I don't know how you compete with the internet when people start automatically going there for their back catalogue needs.

I'm not saying HMV is some kind of paragon of business acumen and musical passion but I find "no sympathy" a weird reaction to people losing their jobs and many parts of the country losing their sole remaining record shop. I went back to my university town a year or so ago and broke my heart to see that a street which once had four record shops had none and that the last place standing was HMV. The "thriving independents" you talk about, Autumn Almanac, just don't exist in most parts of Britain.

Classic example from way back:

Reading band (back when that meant they would have local fans) The Heartthrobs had their first album out as a special ltd edition picdisc.

I went to HMV to get it, and had to ask the assistant for it, which she managed. But they had a total of four of any kind.

No doubt, every branch had four. But it would have made some sense to actually have more than that in their home town, wouldn't it?

Large chain bookstores are at least decent environments for BROWSING. If you go into a decent, well-stocked Waterstones there are still good books put on display and recommended by staff who actually work into the shop. It's a pleasant environment to actually look for things you might like.

HMVs these days are a chaotic, badly-organised nightmare, they're no longer stores that people want to go into unless they actually have to, and unless they're buying video games or random presents, no one actually has to nowadays. The chain looks spectacularly mismanaged from what I can see.

The "thriving independents" you talk about, Autumn Almanac, just don't exist in most parts of Britain.

Most of ours have gone as well, but a few still exist. It's always sad to see small businesses forcibly moved on by industry change but everything changes. I also recognise that people lose their jobs, but again, everything changes. Unless your country is in the throes of recession (which to be fair applies to you atm) other jobs are available.

Large chain bookstores are at least decent environments for BROWSING. If you go into a decent, well-stocked Waterstones there are still good books put on display and recommended by staff who actually work into the shop. It's a pleasant environment to actually look for things you might like.

This sounds like Rough Trade shop.

Unless your country is in the throes of recession (which to be fair applies to you atm) other jobs are available

Nice

xpost I think my affection for physical shopping isn't going to gel with your realpolitik. History is on your side, no doubt - just try not to dance too loudly on the graves.

I don't really know how you can save a chain that's so dependent on a format that's rapidly becoming obsolete. The only people who still buy CDs are those who are so passionate they'll be able to get them online for as long as they exist, or so casual they'll be happy to get them in Tesco. HMV is a halfway house that only suits a pool of customers that's rapidly diminishing.

Actually there's an argument that the death of something like HMV would result in more independent record shops popping up again, but it'll never be like it was in the 80s and 90s.

Be sorry to see the classical music guys in HMV Oxford St lose their jobs, they know their shit

I'm talking about pop music anyway, be interested to see how classical CD sales are holding up, and they really would be a casualty if HMV were to go under. But I'd imagine most high streets would spawn at least one classical record shop were that to happen.

(hah - xpost)

that's a strong piece by laura snapes upthread - didn't know that about sale-or-return. can't really think of a solution at all though. i am part of the problem, haven't set foot in an hmv (or...any record shop) for years - i just don't need it for anything. tellingly, even though i'm someone who prefers to shop for everything except clothes online, i still enjoy moseying around in bookshops (whether chain/independent/charity) - as matt says they just offer a nice browsing experience, which hmv never did.

i'm guessing classical cd sales won't be undercut by downloads to anywhere near the same extent (the idea of downloading a classical piece is...weird to me), but in terms of competing w/online cd retailers, surely they're headed the same way as pop cds eventually - just several years behind due to demographic differences.

xxxxxxxxp obviously I feel for people who lose their jobs in a dying industry (especially those who are passionate about what they do) but it's not like those people die as well. If there's no commercial imperative to keep these places operating, that's not the evil hand of some angry magnate forcing the wholesome independent out of business, it's just a thing that happens. Standing around complaining about new-fangled changes and pitying the casualties doesn't help anyone.

Yeah really any bricks and mortar shop selling anything except clothes, food and probably homeware is going to die unless it can reinvent itself as an environment that people actually want to spend time in, or unless it's so ridiculously cheap that people don't care.

But I'd imagine most high streets would spawn at least one classical record shop were that to happen.

I doubt this very much. I suppose it would all go online but I fear some of the doddery old coots who frequent the classical music section would miss the 20 minutes (at least) they spend talking to the nice young men behind the counter when making their purchases

Sister Ray on Berwick Street now sells a lot of its back catalogue as cheaply as Amazon and that's still a great place to browse - I try to give them my money whenever I can.

HMV, I'll admit, I mostly use for DVDs now - they used to have a good dance vinyl section, which was my main incentive to go.

xpost to Autumn Almanac. Constantly saying "This is how capitalism works. Deal with it. Onward to a brighter, cleaner future" is annoying. You can just let people maintain affection for the alternatives you know.

Yeah, I miss blacksmiths and the little kid that used to sweep our chimneys.

Yeah really any bricks and mortar shop selling anything except clothes, food and probably homeware is going to die unless it can reinvent itself as an environment that people actually want to spend time in, or unless it's so ridiculously cheap that people don't care.

― Matt DC, Tuesday, 1 March 2011 22:40 (14 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

I reckon in say 15 years the only brick-and-mortar shops left in existence will be those that require inspection of goods before purchase, i.e. the stuff you've mentioned here. If there's no benefit to be had in leaving the house to buy something, more and more people will just do it in their underpants. It won't be a massive change but it could be large enough to effect a localised recession in the retail sector.

xpost to Autumn Almanac. Constantly saying "This is how capitalism works. Deal with it. Onward to a brighter, cleaner future" is annoying. You can just let people maintain affection for the alternatives you know.

― Pop is superior to all other genres (DL), Tuesday, 1 March 2011 22:44 (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

You are taking this way too seriously. I'm not stopping you doing anything.

the other thing with amazon isn't just price - if i want some random back catalogue item, often i won't know whether [physical record shop] has it in stock except by trekking in. with amazon i can find out with a click of a button and then once i'm there it's just easier to buy the thing there and then.

yeah I spent hours on Saturday trudging round shops looking for an old Day V. Lately tune

He should have tried Gemm, basically.

the other thing with amazon isn't just price - if i want some random back catalogue item, often i won't know whether [physical record shop] has it in stock except by trekking in

Well, no, you could phone in. The advantage of buying something from an actual shop is that you get it instantly.

The advantage of buying something from an actual shop is that you get it instantly.

itunes has the edge there.

Well, no, you could phone in.

agh no. i am firmly w/caitlin moran on the subject of telephones - such a brutal, primitive method of communication

Not like emails/posting to ILx, etc...

I still don't see why record stores closing would be a good thing. Shitty sounding vinyl and even more shitty mp3s taking over? No thank you! The CD is superior to all other sound formats for now, and it is needed to keep it vital and alive until lossless becomes the one and only existing digital downloading format. Which may take some time due to the kids' shitty audio taste and lack of an ear for dynamic nuances.

The is not so much about the album, because the album as a format will survive even without the CD, only less confined to the 35-50 minute format and probably an increasing amount of mini albums such as the "Body Talk" albums by Robyn last year. It is merely about sound.

Around here, record chains have struggled too, but this has actually strengthened the one huge chain that is left. Platekompaniet, the biggest record store chain in Norway, is doing very well (although partly based upon DVD, admittedly) while other chains (besides the occasional genre specialist indie store) have all but disappeared. I think there is still also a chain named Musikkverket doing rather well in areas a bit away from Oslo. But they have never managed to establish in Oslo, as their concept is obviously inferior to the concept of Platekompaniet.

I really hope Fopp manages to survive when HMV finally goes down.

there's one HMV a mere stone's throw from me, i've never seen any people in there fumbling about in the shop for some cd's or papers. it always seems like i like i'm passing a dead place, actually. if people buy a cd these days, they do online i guess.

I might get in that HMV and ask " Is this the same place where 350,000 of people stood in line on 21 august,1997 to buy Be Here Now? Why is it so dead now? This is just rubbish"

>I really hope Fopp manages to survive when HMV finally goes down.

This. I'm as guilty as anyone of buying most of my CDs online now, but a pre-christmas trip to one of the HMVs in M/cr gave me a powerful reminder why I don't shop there: enormous selection of overpriced films, games, headphones and related stuff, but the music section was maybe 1/3 as big as last time I was in there and with almost no back catalogue at all.

They didn't have two of the three CDs I wanted so I bailed out and went to Fopp instead, where I found all three within 5 minutes and didn't pay more than £7 for any of them. I also bought a couple of reasonably priced DVDs and a blu-ray whilst in there. And a book. All of this in a store which is about 10% of the size of HMV.

Meanwhile, Gideon decides to start looking after the pennies:

George Osborne is expected to use this month's budget to announce a crackdown on a ballooning internet VAT dodge on the sale of CDs, DVDs, memory cards, vitamin pills and contact lenses, involving some of the biggest names in British retailing.

Industrial scale avoidance of VAT on these and other goods is estimated to have cost the exchequer £130m in lost tax revenues last year – a jump of more than 50% on five years ago – according to Revenue & Customs. Industry insiders believe the true figure could be much higher.

If unchallenged, taxpayer losses are likely to soar higher still in the wake of the chancellor's decision to increase the rate of VAT to 20% at the start of the year.

In Vienna we don't have any megastores anymore, we have a couple of excellent independents but the different thing we have here is a massive chain of electrical stores called Saturn which also carries a wide range of CDs/DVDs and a surprisingly large selection of vinyl. €2-€3 more expensive than the indies probably but not a bad environment for browsing in. You can wander over to the music section having salivated over the latest flat screen TV.

Saturn's fun.