best song The-Dream Love/Hate

i don't love L/H but i don't think it's because he hadn't found his voice or developed his sound yet, which seems like an odd critique given that most of the biggest songs he's written were on that album or released earlier

yeah i'm shocked that ilxor's post is completely wrong

lol

I do think there's a link between newcomers to The-Dream preferring him in Love King mode to Love/Hate mode (though, obv, these "modes" are all a matter of degree - "She Needs My Love" and "Sex Intelligent" reflect each other as "Luv Songs" and "Turnt Out" do) - if you're jumping on board with The-Dream now you're buying into this whole pre-established narrative of this sonically voluptuous studio-auteur who has created his own little soundworld.

This was something you could have started to articulate with the first album but it's much more clear-cut now (if anything because The-Dream's capacity to write good non-soundworldy material is more limited now, the only LK classic in that vein is "F.I.L.A." and even that's pretty dense).

Hence ilxor's wrongheaded but understandable claim that "a lot of the songs here sound underdeveloped/unfinished" - from a 2010 The-Dream perspective, this is correct to the extent that The-Dream probably would have added more bells and whistles to these if he was making them now.

Conversely, from a 2008 The-Dream perspective "Love King", "Make Up Bag", "Panties To The Side" and "February Love", and perhaps even "Nikki Pt 2" would have all felt like they needed more work as songs.

I don't know if these albums are that stylistically distinct from each other to have different "modes" tbh and is there anything to this 'newbies like Love King best' thing outside of one or two people on this thread?

i dunno al that seems pretty on point to me

& i think they do tend to privilege love vs money if they're in the latter camp, rather than love king, but thats probably when most of them first got on board yeah?

I have been listening to The-Dream for only a short few months and as of right now, as I've previously mentioned, I like the first two better than Love King.

i was kind of hoping that going out of my way to say L/H isn't my favourite terius album would mean an end to people blithely asserting that "newbies like the new ones best" as though you're only a True Fan if your fav is L/H

Yeah but you like LvM more than L/H, right San Te?

I don't know if these albums are that stylistically distinct from each other to have different "modes" tbh

see the caveat in my post exactly on this point al.

xpost regarding ilxor's point, I think Love/Hate is as polished a debut album as you're ever going to get from anybody -- it doesn't seem undeveloped to me at all. Really the only reason I like Love Vs. Money better is that it's a 'heavier' album, which is what I tend to gravitate towards. each album has probably only one song I'm not fond of.

Also I am not all sure they won't switch places at all. Love/Hate begins with a 1-2-3 punch that's hard to beat.

yes Tim I do. but it's not by a wide margin.

i was kind of hoping that going out of my way to say L/H isn't my favourite terius album would mean an end to people blithely asserting that "newbies like the new ones best" as though you're only a True Fan if your fav is L/H

― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:00 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

we r all snowflakes

lex you made a valiant effort, but after all, this is ILX

BTW i'm not rubbishing people for liking LK or LvM best, I just think that the point in time that you get into this dude is likely to influence the way you perceive his mix of strengths and weaknesses and how that mix plays out from album to album.

If anything the opposite can strike me as more wrongheaded in a lot of cases, there are heaps of artists who I reckon only peaked with say their 5th or 6th album but the early adopters remain (IMO sentimentally) attached to the earlier releases.

when you come into fandom can definitely play a role in your favorites, whether conscious or subconscious, but for me that usually only happens if an artist goes through a distinct and pronounced change in sound/style. IE, I started listening to Savatage after their shift to poppy progrsesive metal as opposed to their raw metal of the early days, so the early stuff sounded "weird" to me at first and I didn't like it as much...until years later.

i got into terius with L/H. but even then what i preferred was his sonic voluptuous mode, for which he went much further out on LvM. don't you think there's something in the fact that this is the mode that he seems to prefer as well? especially given how rote his "ordinary" songs have become, it doesn't seem like his heart's in those.

i do think that he has largely abandoned the more writerly ones, but i dont know that u can really determine was his motivating factor was -- it does seem to me that he probably thought his personality & melodic ear would help carry those songs & he didnt need to worry so much about structure & creating 'standards' & could move into auteur mode. whether or not that is a good or bad thing seems to be what is debated here -- it seems like a reasonable generalization (which lex is apparently an exception to) to say that the earlier you got into him, the more u tended to prefer the former style

andy k is an exception too

a generalisation based on about 5 people, with 2 exceptions? this is why i don't buy that this is a thing.

idk seems like its based on a lot more than 5 ppl to me -- basically everyone who talks about getting into dream circa LvM or later thinks L/H is worse than LvM -- theres a lot of evidence of this on like every dream thread on ilx

whereas the ppl who rep for L/H first are almost exclusively ppl who got into L/H right after it dropped -- yes there are like 2 ppl who prefer his later development but that doesnt contradict either general trend i just described

"everyone"

I do think there's a link between newcomers to The-Dream preferring him in Love King mode to Love/Hate mode (though, obv, these "modes" are all a matter of degree - "She Needs My Love" and "Sex Intelligent" reflect each other as "Luv Songs" and "Turnt Out" do) - if you're jumping on board with The-Dream now you're buying into this whole pre-established narrative of this sonically voluptuous studio-auteur who has created his own little soundworld.

This was something you could have started to articulate with the first album but it's much more clear-cut now (if anything because The-Dream's capacity to write good non-soundworldy material is more limited now, the only LK classic in that vein is "F.I.L.A." and even that's pretty dense).

Hence ilxor's wrongheaded but understandable claim that "a lot of the songs here sound underdeveloped/unfinished" - from a 2010 The-Dream perspective, this is correct to the extent that The-Dream probably would have added more bells and whistles to these if he was making them now.

Conversely, from a 2008 The-Dream perspective "Love King", "Make Up Bag", "Panties To The Side" and "February Love", and perhaps even "Nikki Pt 2" would have all felt like they needed more work as songs.

― Tim F, Wednesday, January 19, 2011 3:53 PM (36 minutes ago)

tim i think yr arguments are good (as per usual) but this would prob hold more weight for me if i was really a newcomer. i mean, i wasn't listening to the-dream back whenever deej started (lol?) but i picked up Love/Hate in Q4 2008 when it was the only album on shelves, then lived with it for something like 3-4 months before Love Vs Money came out in March 2009.

"everyone"

― i love tampon spaceship (San Te), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:34 PM (41 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

"had a modifier"

also note phrases like it seems like a reasonable generalization

general trend

i mean jesus dudes, you got us, we thought every single person thought this way

yeesh

i'm saying it doesn't seem like an accurate generalisation, neither here on ilx nor irl for me, and your desire to ascribe consensus where none exists doesn't stand up?

lex have you read no non-ILM crit on the-dream?

even on ilx though:
is there some huge number of ilxors who got on board post-LvM who think L/H is the best one?

i cant recall anyone

yes, the converse is *slightly* more common on ilx, home of the contraristan

tim i know a ton of people irl, most of whom are not critics, who are huge huge terius stans lol

you could say, actually, that most CRITICS got on board with LvM and (thus) prefer it and LK to L/H - and i'd agree with that. but i'm not talking about critics, and i don't think that generalisation applies to terius fans across the board.

also fyi i don't actually read a great deal of music crit at all so if yr going in on ~critics~ i'm likely to not know what you're talking about :/

I know a lot of people into the-dream irl as well, most of them got on board between lvm and lk (and a good half of them due to my stanning), and most rank albums either:

1. LvM 2. LK 3. L/H

or

1. LK 2. LvM 3. L/H

this is also reflected in a lot of stuff i've read on-line.

nb. to the extent that a lot of these people follow R&B half-heartedly (as compared to say you or me or andy k or the goons) they are perhaps more likely to code as "critics" rather than "terius fans" for the purpose of this conversation.

x-post - yeah maybe this is the crucial point.

Again I don't think this is something that's worth getting het up over given that both the differences in the albums and the differences in people's enjoyment of the albums are largely a matter of degree. It's not like there are unfathomable aesthetic divisions between the type of person who likes LK best and the type of person who likes L/H best.

i got into terius with L/H. but even then what i preferred was his sonic voluptuous mode, for which he went much further out on LvM.

also with regard to the above, as was discussed in one of the other threads I actually agree about preferring the epic stuff by and large, I just think when he was good at both it made for a stronger overall album.

don't you think there's something in the fact that this is the mode that he seems to prefer as well? especially given how rote his "ordinary" songs have become, it doesn't seem like his heart's in those.

this point kinda plays both ways - assuming you're correct, it's not hard to see why an artist whose heart isn't into about half the stuff he does might be slipping slightly in quality.

yeah i'd also agree that people who aren't R&B fans will def prefer the later albums. but so do R&B fans (who are the irl people i'm referring to)!

idk the impression i get is that LvM is the consensus favourite across the board, regardless of what kind of fan you are or when you got into terius, with outliers preferring L/H or LK (well i know v.few people who say LK is the best but whatever).

idk the impression i get is that LvM is the consensus favourite across the board, regardless of what kind of fan you are or when you got into terius, with outliers preferring L/H or LK (well i know v.few people who say LK is the best but whatever).

― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:52 PM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark

haha so this is your underlying argument

now i have to ask, with so many ilx exceptions, how can that possibly be an accurate generalization

i mean turnabout = fair play right

objectivity by false consensus

I just think when he was good at both it made for a stronger overall album.

i guess i think LvM's "ordinary" songs are on a similar level to L/H's "ordinary" songs (or better), and it definitely flows better as an album - L/H is pretty scattershot if you try to listen to it all the way through - i tend to listen to bunches of similar songs on it, whereas on LvM i think terius blends the ordinary into the epic in a pretty amazing way.

oh hi guys -- you're still here?

i guess i think LvM's "ordinary" songs are on a similar level to L/H's "ordinary" songs (or better), and it definitely flows better as an album - L/H is pretty scattershot if you try to listen to it all the way through - i tend to listen to bunches of similar songs on it, whereas on LvM i think terius blends the ordinary into the epic in a pretty amazing way.

― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:55 PM (47 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

see this argument sounds like an 'outlier' to me

Hence ilxor's wrongheaded but understandable claim that "a lot of the songs here sound underdeveloped/unfinished" - from a 2010 The-Dream perspective, this is correct to the extent that The-Dream probably would have added more bells and whistles to these if he was making them now.

Conversely, from a 2008 The-Dream perspective "Love King", "Make Up Bag", "Panties To The Side" and "February Love", and perhaps even "Nikki Pt 2" would have all felt like they needed more work as songs.

― Tim F, Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:53 PM (2 minutes ago)

so otm

LvM/LK feel like tryhards, L/H is smooth all the way til the rihanna joint

the breakdown at the end of fast car where the harpsichord comes in = omg

Hence ilxor's wrongheaded but understandable claim that "a lot of the songs here sound underdeveloped/unfinished" - from a 2010 The-Dream perspective, this is correct to the extent that The-Dream probably would have added more bells and whistles to these if he was making them now.

Conversely, from a 2008 The-Dream perspective "Love King", "Make Up Bag", "Panties To The Side" and "February Love", and perhaps even "Nikki Pt 2" would have all felt like they needed more work as songs.

― Tim F, Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:53 PM (2 minutes ago)

so otm

― fruit of the goon (k3vin k.), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 5:07 PM (3 hours ago)

otm how so? i mean, maybe if i started listening to the-dream in 2010, but i've been on board since Q4 2008 soooo

forget about the part where he referred to you

lol okay i get it now- tim f otm as per usual