when you come into fandom can definitely play a role in your favorites, whether conscious or subconscious, but for me that usually only happens if an artist goes through a distinct and pronounced change in sound/style. IE, I started listening to Savatage after their shift to poppy progrsesive metal as opposed to their raw metal of the early days, so the early stuff sounded "weird" to me at first and I didn't like it as much...until years later.
― i love tampon spaceship (San Te), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:08 (thirteen years ago) link
i got into terius with L/H. but even then what i preferred was his sonic voluptuous mode, for which he went much further out on LvM. don't you think there's something in the fact that this is the mode that he seems to prefer as well? especially given how rote his "ordinary" songs have become, it doesn't seem like his heart's in those.
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:21 (thirteen years ago) link
i do think that he has largely abandoned the more writerly ones, but i dont know that u can really determine was his motivating factor was -- it does seem to me that he probably thought his personality & melodic ear would help carry those songs & he didnt need to worry so much about structure & creating 'standards' & could move into auteur mode. whether or not that is a good or bad thing seems to be what is debated here -- it seems like a reasonable generalization (which lex is apparently an exception to) to say that the earlier you got into him, the more u tended to prefer the former style
― *gets the power* (deej), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:28 (thirteen years ago) link
andy k is an exception too
a generalisation based on about 5 people, with 2 exceptions? this is why i don't buy that this is a thing.
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:30 (thirteen years ago) link
idk seems like its based on a lot more than 5 ppl to me -- basically everyone who talks about getting into dream circa LvM or later thinks L/H is worse than LvM -- theres a lot of evidence of this on like every dream thread on ilx
― *gets the power* (deej), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:33 (thirteen years ago) link
whereas the ppl who rep for L/H first are almost exclusively ppl who got into L/H right after it dropped -- yes there are like 2 ppl who prefer his later development but that doesnt contradict either general trend i just described
"everyone"
― i love tampon spaceship (San Te), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:34 (thirteen years ago) link
I do think there's a link between newcomers to The-Dream preferring him in Love King mode to Love/Hate mode (though, obv, these "modes" are all a matter of degree - "She Needs My Love" and "Sex Intelligent" reflect each other as "Luv Songs" and "Turnt Out" do) - if you're jumping on board with The-Dream now you're buying into this whole pre-established narrative of this sonically voluptuous studio-auteur who has created his own little soundworld.This was something you could have started to articulate with the first album but it's much more clear-cut now (if anything because The-Dream's capacity to write good non-soundworldy material is more limited now, the only LK classic in that vein is "F.I.L.A." and even that's pretty dense).Hence ilxor's wrongheaded but understandable claim that "a lot of the songs here sound underdeveloped/unfinished" - from a 2010 The-Dream perspective, this is correct to the extent that The-Dream probably would have added more bells and whistles to these if he was making them now.Conversely, from a 2008 The-Dream perspective "Love King", "Make Up Bag", "Panties To The Side" and "February Love", and perhaps even "Nikki Pt 2" would have all felt like they needed more work as songs.― Tim F, Wednesday, January 19, 2011 3:53 PM (36 minutes ago)
This was something you could have started to articulate with the first album but it's much more clear-cut now (if anything because The-Dream's capacity to write good non-soundworldy material is more limited now, the only LK classic in that vein is "F.I.L.A." and even that's pretty dense).
Hence ilxor's wrongheaded but understandable claim that "a lot of the songs here sound underdeveloped/unfinished" - from a 2010 The-Dream perspective, this is correct to the extent that The-Dream probably would have added more bells and whistles to these if he was making them now.
Conversely, from a 2008 The-Dream perspective "Love King", "Make Up Bag", "Panties To The Side" and "February Love", and perhaps even "Nikki Pt 2" would have all felt like they needed more work as songs.
― Tim F, Wednesday, January 19, 2011 3:53 PM (36 minutes ago)
tim i think yr arguments are good (as per usual) but this would prob hold more weight for me if i was really a newcomer. i mean, i wasn't listening to the-dream back whenever deej started (lol?) but i picked up Love/Hate in Q4 2008 when it was the only album on shelves, then lived with it for something like 3-4 months before Love Vs Money came out in March 2009.
― ilxor, Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:34 (thirteen years ago) link
― i love tampon spaceship (San Te), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:34 PM (41 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
"had a modifier"
― *gets the power* (deej), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:35 (thirteen years ago) link
also note phrases like it seems like a reasonable generalization
― *gets the power* (deej), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:36 (thirteen years ago) link
general trend
i mean jesus dudes, you got us, we thought every single person thought this way
yeesh
i'm saying it doesn't seem like an accurate generalisation, neither here on ilx nor irl for me, and your desire to ascribe consensus where none exists doesn't stand up?
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:38 (thirteen years ago) link
lex have you read no non-ILM crit on the-dream?
― Tim F, Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:40 (thirteen years ago) link
even on ilx though:is there some huge number of ilxors who got on board post-LvM who think L/H is the best one?
i cant recall anyone
― *gets the power* (deej), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:41 (thirteen years ago) link
yes, the converse is *slightly* more common on ilx, home of the contraristan
― *gets the power* (deej), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:42 (thirteen years ago) link
tim i know a ton of people irl, most of whom are not critics, who are huge huge terius stans lol
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:44 (thirteen years ago) link
you could say, actually, that most CRITICS got on board with LvM and (thus) prefer it and LK to L/H - and i'd agree with that. but i'm not talking about critics, and i don't think that generalisation applies to terius fans across the board.
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:45 (thirteen years ago) link
also fyi i don't actually read a great deal of music crit at all so if yr going in on ~critics~ i'm likely to not know what you're talking about :/
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:47 (thirteen years ago) link
I know a lot of people into the-dream irl as well, most of them got on board between lvm and lk (and a good half of them due to my stanning), and most rank albums either:
1. LvM 2. LK 3. L/H
or
1. LK 2. LvM 3. L/H
this is also reflected in a lot of stuff i've read on-line.
nb. to the extent that a lot of these people follow R&B half-heartedly (as compared to say you or me or andy k or the goons) they are perhaps more likely to code as "critics" rather than "terius fans" for the purpose of this conversation.
x-post - yeah maybe this is the crucial point.
Again I don't think this is something that's worth getting het up over given that both the differences in the albums and the differences in people's enjoyment of the albums are largely a matter of degree. It's not like there are unfathomable aesthetic divisions between the type of person who likes LK best and the type of person who likes L/H best.
― Tim F, Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:49 (thirteen years ago) link
i got into terius with L/H. but even then what i preferred was his sonic voluptuous mode, for which he went much further out on LvM.
also with regard to the above, as was discussed in one of the other threads I actually agree about preferring the epic stuff by and large, I just think when he was good at both it made for a stronger overall album.
don't you think there's something in the fact that this is the mode that he seems to prefer as well? especially given how rote his "ordinary" songs have become, it doesn't seem like his heart's in those.
this point kinda plays both ways - assuming you're correct, it's not hard to see why an artist whose heart isn't into about half the stuff he does might be slipping slightly in quality.
― Tim F, Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:51 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah i'd also agree that people who aren't R&B fans will def prefer the later albums. but so do R&B fans (who are the irl people i'm referring to)!
idk the impression i get is that LvM is the consensus favourite across the board, regardless of what kind of fan you are or when you got into terius, with outliers preferring L/H or LK (well i know v.few people who say LK is the best but whatever).
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:52 (thirteen years ago) link
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:52 PM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark
haha so this is your underlying argument
― *gets the power* (deej), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:54 (thirteen years ago) link
now i have to ask, with so many ilx exceptions, how can that possibly be an accurate generalization
i mean turnabout = fair play right
objectivity by false consensus
― *gets the power* (deej), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:55 (thirteen years ago) link
I just think when he was good at both it made for a stronger overall album.
i guess i think LvM's "ordinary" songs are on a similar level to L/H's "ordinary" songs (or better), and it definitely flows better as an album - L/H is pretty scattershot if you try to listen to it all the way through - i tend to listen to bunches of similar songs on it, whereas on LvM i think terius blends the ordinary into the epic in a pretty amazing way.
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:55 (thirteen years ago) link
oh hi guys -- you're still here?
― Gus Van Sotosyn (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:56 (thirteen years ago) link
― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:55 PM (47 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
see this argument sounds like an 'outlier' to me
― *gets the power* (deej), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 22:57 (thirteen years ago) link
― Tim F, Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:53 PM (2 minutes ago)
so otm
― fruit of the goon (k3vin k.), Wednesday, 19 January 2011 23:07 (thirteen years ago) link
LvM/LK feel like tryhards, L/H is smooth all the way til the rihanna joint
― dayo, Thursday, 20 January 2011 00:40 (thirteen years ago) link
the breakdown at the end of fast car where the harpsichord comes in = omg
Hence ilxor's wrongheaded but understandable claim that "a lot of the songs here sound underdeveloped/unfinished" - from a 2010 The-Dream perspective, this is correct to the extent that The-Dream probably would have added more bells and whistles to these if he was making them now.Conversely, from a 2008 The-Dream perspective "Love King", "Make Up Bag", "Panties To The Side" and "February Love", and perhaps even "Nikki Pt 2" would have all felt like they needed more work as songs.― Tim F, Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:53 PM (2 minutes ago)so otm― fruit of the goon (k3vin k.), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 5:07 PM (3 hours ago)
― fruit of the goon (k3vin k.), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 5:07 PM (3 hours ago)
otm how so? i mean, maybe if i started listening to the-dream in 2010, but i've been on board since Q4 2008 soooo
― ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 02:59 (thirteen years ago) link
forget about the part where he referred to you
― fruit of the goon (k3vin k.), Thursday, 20 January 2011 03:03 (thirteen years ago) link
lol okay i get it now- tim f otm as per usual
― ilxor, Thursday, 20 January 2011 03:08 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah apologies ilxor for misrepresenting you. Of course these kinds of discussions will always founder on specific examples if it comes down to who liked what when (one would think for obvious reasons, but my constant surprise doesn't change the fact that the ilx modus operandi is for people to make sweeping assessments like "oh this album is like blah" and then ark up if any other person's explanation doesn't capture their own experience exactly).
my point was more trying to explain the relationship between the narrative of the-dream that underpins your assessment and the narrative that underpins mine - it's not just about liking "yamaha" versus liking "purple kisses" (esp. since most days "yamaha" is my favourite tune on LK) but rather goes to yr entire notion of what "overdone" versus "underdone" means in the context of the-dream's work.
― Tim F, Thursday, 20 January 2011 03:28 (thirteen years ago) link
kind of feel like nitpicking the differences between these albums is a little like trying to explain how the first 3 Ramones albums are so so different from each other or something
― some dude, Thursday, 20 January 2011 03:32 (thirteen years ago) link
in general, yeah, but I suspect the differences feel more meaningful for anyone who would name one of these albums their favourite album of x year etc, as a lot of people in this thread would.
If you've never thought of the-dream as rising above a solid 7 or 8 out of 10, then, sure, it'd be a pretty pointless conversation.
― Tim F, Thursday, 20 January 2011 03:37 (thirteen years ago) link
right
anyway i feel like love king is sort of a (lamer) update on love vs money more than either really builds on love/hate
― fruit of the goon (k3vin k.), Thursday, 20 January 2011 03:39 (thirteen years ago) link
got me dead to rights there
― some dude, Thursday, 20 January 2011 03:40 (thirteen years ago) link
ha dude what tim said isn't like an idictment of you or anything; you obv acknowledge that our terristannery is sort of outta control
― fruit of the goon (k3vin k.), Thursday, 20 January 2011 03:42 (thirteen years ago) link
indictment*
i wasn't being sarcastic or sassy or anything, i understand and agree. like i could nitpick minute details between Superchunk albums or something because i like some of them more than any The-Dream album.
― some dude, Thursday, 20 January 2011 03:46 (thirteen years ago) link
chorus of "She Needs My Love" is so massive
― jho'sh? "ice cr?m" jackson (The Reverend), Thursday, 19 May 2011 09:35 (thirteen years ago) link
i have made this point before, apparently
― jho'sh? "ice cr?m" jackson (The Reverend), Thursday, 19 May 2011 09:41 (thirteen years ago) link
fast car/ nikki, highlight of the-dreams career thus far
― prego, Tuesday, 13 September 2011 20:11 (twelve years ago) link
wait til you get to purple kisses and luv songs
― stalk me shithead (from the makers of tickle me elmo) (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 13 September 2011 20:19 (twelve years ago) link
It's grown on me a bit, but I always thought "Fast Car" was kind of silly and out of place on Love/Hate. It still doesn't seem as fleshed out as his subsequent Prince homages to me.
― Evan R, Tuesday, 13 September 2011 20:26 (twelve years ago) link
it's certainly the barest, which is why i probably love it most
― stalk me shithead (from the makers of tickle me elmo) (k3vin k.), Tuesday, 13 September 2011 20:27 (twelve years ago) link