best song The-Dream Love/Hate

andy k is an exception too

a generalisation based on about 5 people, with 2 exceptions? this is why i don't buy that this is a thing.

idk seems like its based on a lot more than 5 ppl to me -- basically everyone who talks about getting into dream circa LvM or later thinks L/H is worse than LvM -- theres a lot of evidence of this on like every dream thread on ilx

whereas the ppl who rep for L/H first are almost exclusively ppl who got into L/H right after it dropped -- yes there are like 2 ppl who prefer his later development but that doesnt contradict either general trend i just described

"everyone"

I do think there's a link between newcomers to The-Dream preferring him in Love King mode to Love/Hate mode (though, obv, these "modes" are all a matter of degree - "She Needs My Love" and "Sex Intelligent" reflect each other as "Luv Songs" and "Turnt Out" do) - if you're jumping on board with The-Dream now you're buying into this whole pre-established narrative of this sonically voluptuous studio-auteur who has created his own little soundworld.

This was something you could have started to articulate with the first album but it's much more clear-cut now (if anything because The-Dream's capacity to write good non-soundworldy material is more limited now, the only LK classic in that vein is "F.I.L.A." and even that's pretty dense).

Hence ilxor's wrongheaded but understandable claim that "a lot of the songs here sound underdeveloped/unfinished" - from a 2010 The-Dream perspective, this is correct to the extent that The-Dream probably would have added more bells and whistles to these if he was making them now.

Conversely, from a 2008 The-Dream perspective "Love King", "Make Up Bag", "Panties To The Side" and "February Love", and perhaps even "Nikki Pt 2" would have all felt like they needed more work as songs.

― Tim F, Wednesday, January 19, 2011 3:53 PM (36 minutes ago)

tim i think yr arguments are good (as per usual) but this would prob hold more weight for me if i was really a newcomer. i mean, i wasn't listening to the-dream back whenever deej started (lol?) but i picked up Love/Hate in Q4 2008 when it was the only album on shelves, then lived with it for something like 3-4 months before Love Vs Money came out in March 2009.

"everyone"

― i love tampon spaceship (San Te), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:34 PM (41 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

"had a modifier"

also note phrases like it seems like a reasonable generalization

general trend

i mean jesus dudes, you got us, we thought every single person thought this way

yeesh

i'm saying it doesn't seem like an accurate generalisation, neither here on ilx nor irl for me, and your desire to ascribe consensus where none exists doesn't stand up?

lex have you read no non-ILM crit on the-dream?

even on ilx though:
is there some huge number of ilxors who got on board post-LvM who think L/H is the best one?

i cant recall anyone

yes, the converse is *slightly* more common on ilx, home of the contraristan

tim i know a ton of people irl, most of whom are not critics, who are huge huge terius stans lol

you could say, actually, that most CRITICS got on board with LvM and (thus) prefer it and LK to L/H - and i'd agree with that. but i'm not talking about critics, and i don't think that generalisation applies to terius fans across the board.

also fyi i don't actually read a great deal of music crit at all so if yr going in on ~critics~ i'm likely to not know what you're talking about :/

I know a lot of people into the-dream irl as well, most of them got on board between lvm and lk (and a good half of them due to my stanning), and most rank albums either:

1. LvM 2. LK 3. L/H

or

1. LK 2. LvM 3. L/H

this is also reflected in a lot of stuff i've read on-line.

nb. to the extent that a lot of these people follow R&B half-heartedly (as compared to say you or me or andy k or the goons) they are perhaps more likely to code as "critics" rather than "terius fans" for the purpose of this conversation.

x-post - yeah maybe this is the crucial point.

Again I don't think this is something that's worth getting het up over given that both the differences in the albums and the differences in people's enjoyment of the albums are largely a matter of degree. It's not like there are unfathomable aesthetic divisions between the type of person who likes LK best and the type of person who likes L/H best.

i got into terius with L/H. but even then what i preferred was his sonic voluptuous mode, for which he went much further out on LvM.

also with regard to the above, as was discussed in one of the other threads I actually agree about preferring the epic stuff by and large, I just think when he was good at both it made for a stronger overall album.

don't you think there's something in the fact that this is the mode that he seems to prefer as well? especially given how rote his "ordinary" songs have become, it doesn't seem like his heart's in those.

this point kinda plays both ways - assuming you're correct, it's not hard to see why an artist whose heart isn't into about half the stuff he does might be slipping slightly in quality.

yeah i'd also agree that people who aren't R&B fans will def prefer the later albums. but so do R&B fans (who are the irl people i'm referring to)!

idk the impression i get is that LvM is the consensus favourite across the board, regardless of what kind of fan you are or when you got into terius, with outliers preferring L/H or LK (well i know v.few people who say LK is the best but whatever).

idk the impression i get is that LvM is the consensus favourite across the board, regardless of what kind of fan you are or when you got into terius, with outliers preferring L/H or LK (well i know v.few people who say LK is the best but whatever).

― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:52 PM (5 seconds ago) Bookmark

haha so this is your underlying argument

now i have to ask, with so many ilx exceptions, how can that possibly be an accurate generalization

i mean turnabout = fair play right

objectivity by false consensus

I just think when he was good at both it made for a stronger overall album.

i guess i think LvM's "ordinary" songs are on a similar level to L/H's "ordinary" songs (or better), and it definitely flows better as an album - L/H is pretty scattershot if you try to listen to it all the way through - i tend to listen to bunches of similar songs on it, whereas on LvM i think terius blends the ordinary into the epic in a pretty amazing way.

oh hi guys -- you're still here?

i guess i think LvM's "ordinary" songs are on a similar level to L/H's "ordinary" songs (or better), and it definitely flows better as an album - L/H is pretty scattershot if you try to listen to it all the way through - i tend to listen to bunches of similar songs on it, whereas on LvM i think terius blends the ordinary into the epic in a pretty amazing way.

― lex diamonds (lex pretend), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:55 PM (47 seconds ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

see this argument sounds like an 'outlier' to me

Hence ilxor's wrongheaded but understandable claim that "a lot of the songs here sound underdeveloped/unfinished" - from a 2010 The-Dream perspective, this is correct to the extent that The-Dream probably would have added more bells and whistles to these if he was making them now.

Conversely, from a 2008 The-Dream perspective "Love King", "Make Up Bag", "Panties To The Side" and "February Love", and perhaps even "Nikki Pt 2" would have all felt like they needed more work as songs.

― Tim F, Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:53 PM (2 minutes ago)

so otm

LvM/LK feel like tryhards, L/H is smooth all the way til the rihanna joint

the breakdown at the end of fast car where the harpsichord comes in = omg

Hence ilxor's wrongheaded but understandable claim that "a lot of the songs here sound underdeveloped/unfinished" - from a 2010 The-Dream perspective, this is correct to the extent that The-Dream probably would have added more bells and whistles to these if he was making them now.

Conversely, from a 2008 The-Dream perspective "Love King", "Make Up Bag", "Panties To The Side" and "February Love", and perhaps even "Nikki Pt 2" would have all felt like they needed more work as songs.

― Tim F, Wednesday, January 19, 2011 4:53 PM (2 minutes ago)

so otm

― fruit of the goon (k3vin k.), Wednesday, January 19, 2011 5:07 PM (3 hours ago)

otm how so? i mean, maybe if i started listening to the-dream in 2010, but i've been on board since Q4 2008 soooo

forget about the part where he referred to you

lol okay i get it now- tim f otm as per usual

yeah apologies ilxor for misrepresenting you. Of course these kinds of discussions will always founder on specific examples if it comes down to who liked what when (one would think for obvious reasons, but my constant surprise doesn't change the fact that the ilx modus operandi is for people to make sweeping assessments like "oh this album is like blah" and then ark up if any other person's explanation doesn't capture their own experience exactly).

my point was more trying to explain the relationship between the narrative of the-dream that underpins your assessment and the narrative that underpins mine - it's not just about liking "yamaha" versus liking "purple kisses" (esp. since most days "yamaha" is my favourite tune on LK) but rather goes to yr entire notion of what "overdone" versus "underdone" means in the context of the-dream's work.

kind of feel like nitpicking the differences between these albums is a little like trying to explain how the first 3 Ramones albums are so so different from each other or something

in general, yeah, but I suspect the differences feel more meaningful for anyone who would name one of these albums their favourite album of x year etc, as a lot of people in this thread would.

If you've never thought of the-dream as rising above a solid 7 or 8 out of 10, then, sure, it'd be a pretty pointless conversation.

right

anyway i feel like love king is sort of a (lamer) update on love vs money more than either really builds on love/hate

got me dead to rights there

ha dude what tim said isn't like an idictment of you or anything; you obv acknowledge that our terristannery is sort of outta control

indictment*

i wasn't being sarcastic or sassy or anything, i understand and agree. like i could nitpick minute details between Superchunk albums or something because i like some of them more than any The-Dream album.

chorus of "She Needs My Love" is so massive

i have made this point before, apparently

fast car/ nikki, highlight of the-dreams career thus far

wait til you get to purple kisses and luv songs

It's grown on me a bit, but I always thought "Fast Car" was kind of silly and out of place on Love/Hate. It still doesn't seem as fleshed out as his subsequent Prince homages to me.

it's certainly the barest, which is why i probably love it most

Never got the overwhelming love for Fast Car. Vastly prefer Nikki (pretty sure i voted for it in this poll)

'playin' in her hair' followed by 'purple kisses' is his pinnacle

voted "nikki" but i sort of hate alex for pointing out what a bad line "springtime, summertime, falltime, winter" is in one of these threads. now it bothers me every time.

― horseshoe, Monday, September 7, 2009 2:02 PM (2 years ago) Bookmark