Pazz and Jop 2010

Just for another bit of information, I added the P&J top 100 albums to this dataset I happened to have of 39 other year-end polls:

https://pub.needlebase.com/actions/visualizer/V2Visualizer.do?domain=Album-of-the-Year&query=Pazz+%26+Jop

That's a nice resource, Glenn. I'll have the ILM poll results spreadsheet link up with your AoY and P/J databases.

Oh yeah Lex, "free floating tracks" (which don't otherwise exist on an album), leaked or not, would definitely count for me, too, if I liked them enough. If they're not on an album, they're a single by definition; what else could they be? (I also figure that any track that shows up on, say, a compilation of dancehall or South African house tracks by various artists must be considered a single by somebody somewhere, and if it shows up on a mix CD curated by a DJ, it must be getting played as a single in some club somewhere, even if I don't go to clubs. So my definition definitely has a real wide scope, but it still has to hinge on something less solipsistic than "a random track I liked a lot.")

I think when you say people are choosing songs that are "not necessarily the best, just the most critic-friendly" you are saying the songs they're picking are not as good as other pop songs.

― da croupier, Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:18 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

don't know what the word "necessarily" means, huh

part of the problem in this debate is that we don't really know what we want out of these things. i mean, we want to see our favorite tracks and albums at the top of the ballot results, mixed in with some awesome stuff we've never heard, but beyond that, i don't think there's any clearly defined ideal process or result that things are falling short of.

can anyone honestly say with a straight face that there are certain tracks or albums that are absolutely more or less deserving of high placement in the results than others? i'd hope not, but you never know... for my part i'll happily say that certain artists, due to their popularity and critical respect, will very likely top the polls. but i don't think there's any more to it. people have their tastes, and that's that.

since we can't appeal to absolute artistic virtue, we're left with the wan hope that some sort of wholesome diversity can be obtained. diversity is inherently interesting, and would reassure us that we're not unfairly excluding anyone or anything. it's comforting, like when everyone gets a cookie. we therefore become distressed when evidence of herdlike homogeneity expresses itself, especially when that homogeneity can't be written off as the will of the invisible populist hand.

it's okay when pop artists win, after all, because everyone knows that everyone loves pop artists. being loved by everyone is the job of the pop artist. it's less okay when flaccid indie schmutz blots the landscape, because that sort of homogeneity carries with it a number of uncomfortable implications regarding the voting body. hell, they might even be middle-class for all we know. and they're hoarding all the cookies!

anyway I gotta go do some stuff, maybe later I'll have the energy to spoonfeed my relatively simple point some more

ive been enjoying more contenderizer posts in the past few months but once in awhile you still write long paragraphs of things establishing issues not in question & im like 'man i just read that'

I think when you say people are choosing songs that are "not necessarily the best, just the most critic-friendly" you are saying the songs they're picking are not as good as other pop songs.

― da croupier, Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:18 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

don't know what the word "necessarily" means, huh

― trv kvnt (some dude), Wednesday, January 26, 2011 4:26 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

dude, you know that's a cop-out. otherwise you're saying the p'n'j placers COULD the best songs, but you're concerned about how critic-friendly they are.

and if your point is simple, why don't you just repeat it once, short and sweet, instead of whining about how no one gets it.

I'm just saying that I don't buy the idea that "Bloodbuzz Ohio" represents a failure to engage with popular music any more than anything else on the poll. I think we can probably all agree that the new ways in which music circulates have different dynamics than the old ones, but I suspect that has just as much of an effect on Kanye and Janelle as it does on the Arcade Fire. That is, I suspect you're actually understating the situation, and the disconnect between "popular" and "critical", or between "people who just listen to music" and "people who read and write about music", is actually much deeper than it seems in your chart lists, and the intersections of the sets is increasingly the result of coincidence and second/third-order reactions against reactions...

ive been enjoying more contenderizer posts in the past few months but once in awhile you still write long paragraphs of things establishing issues not in question & im like 'man i just read that'

― tuomascratch beat (deej), Wednesday, January 26, 2011 8:28 AM (3 minutes ago) Bookmark

yeah, i was peripherally aware i was doing just that, but kept at it anyway.

need to get better at hearing the little voice...

"need to get better at hearing the little voice..."

http://www.mydisguises.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/12/noid.gif

thanks for the board descrip, scott

still has to hinge on something less solipsistic than "a random track I liked a lot"
So, if it's on an original-release album or EP, rather than a comp (or offical single, video, free-floater, focus track, your other exceptions), then it can't be in Singles? Is choosing such a track (especially if it's not from an Albums album) *necessarily* solipsistic and random?

Not judging what other folks do in that situation, Don. But yeah, for me, I wouldn't consider a mere album track like that a single. (One reason I didn't vote for Flynnville Train's "Sandman" as a single last year -- though, since they made my albums ballot, it would've been redundant, despite definitely being good enough to make my singles ballot.) (Actually, though, I can see how, uh, Track #1 on an EP might count as a single. If it was a real short EP, and it was clearly the main track, so the other songs were just basically B-sides: Think "Never Say Never" by Romeo Void, or "Ghosttown" by the Specials, say. Which were probably real singles otherwise, anyway.

I think when you say people are choosing songs that are "not necessarily the best, just the most critic-friendly" you are saying the songs they're picking are not as good as other pop songs.

― da croupier, Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:18 AM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

don't know what the word "necessarily" means, huh

― trv kvnt (some dude), Wednesday, January 26, 2011 4:26 PM (2 minutes ago) Bookmark

dude, you know that's a cop-out. otherwise you're saying the p'n'j placers COULD the best songs, but you're concerned about how critic-friendly they are.

― da croupier, Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:30 AM (5 hours ago) Bookmark

What I'm saying is that the list feels more 'filtered' through a critical sensibility, in the broadest most stereotypical "this is what critics like more than the average music listener" way, than it used to be. The critics that put Quad City DJs and Donna Summer and Naughty By Nature and Van Halen and Cameo and Chumbawumba in the top 5 in years past don't seem too cool for school to me like the voters this year and last year. I'm not saying those artists' songs are better than "Fuck You!" or "Runaway," just that they don't easily fulfill a similar kind of predictable critical calculus (Kanye/guy from Gnarls Barkley + expletive-filled chorus = song of the year).

and if your point is simple, why don't you just repeat it once, short and sweet, instead of whining about how no one gets it.

― da croupier, Wednesday, January 26, 2011 11:31 AM (6 hours ago) Bookmark

1) In its first 20-odd years of existence, the P&J singles poll was markedly more populist and unpredictable than the albums poll, which made for an interesting counterpoint and went against the grain of a lot of stereotypes about the snobbishness or tunnel vision of music critics.
2) That has changed dramatically in the last few years, with non-singles and minor hits, usually by the same artists that dominate the albums poll, beating out even the most critically well regarded major hits.
3) As a result, the singles poll now feels more predictable and redundant, and P&J's ability to sum up a year in music or contribute to the dialogue about it feels hampered or more limited.

btw I just looked at the VV site and realized that the singles list has changed pretty substantially since I wrote my essay a week ago, I guess Glenn's been pretty busy triple-checking the numbers. I should reevaluate my stats before I continue mouthing off!

When I looked at the album list a couple days ago, the Bob Seger bootleg was up to #93! But then I noticed how that happened: Placements (on both lists, I think) had been altered to acknowledge ties, but instead of say, two albums tied for #32 followed by an album at #34 (which would be the proper way to do it), they're now followed by an album at #33. And so on, increasingly, down the chart. So the placements now don't really give you an accurate point of departure with which to compare with charts in recent years -- Top 40 or 100 now means something different than Top 40 or 100 used to, since suddenly way more than 40 or 100 albums can fit within those charts, if that makes any sense to anybody.

"Charts in previous years," I mean -- specifically, ones that ran in the VV P&J print versions. (For all I know, that same situation with numbering "tied" albums eventually happened in the past few years in the website version, and I just never noticed. Possibly a software glitch?)

(And of course only the Top 40, not Top 100, would have ever run in print. But Christgau's essay regularly mentioned where other finishers placed, almost always down to #50, and sporadically down to 100 or even lower.)

woah yeah the tie thing explains all the changes -- is that a glitch or a deliberate change of approach?

was looking at the P&J top 20 albums to see what they had in common. though some of these distinctions are quite arbitrary, this is what it looks like to me:

pitchfork best new music - 15/20
indie - 13/20
rock (all indie) - 12/20
chart topping (US top 20 albums) - 10/20
club pop (rap, r&b, dance) - 7/20
rap and r&b - 4/20
electronic - 4/20
billboard #1 - 3/20
country and americana - 2/20
progressive - 2/20
punk - 2/20

I don't control the Voice's site, although I will continue my attempts to get them to get it right. At the moment the numbering there is wrong in two ways: not skipping numbers properly, as Chuck noted, and on the album side, not respecting the number-of-votes tiebreaker for albums tied on points. Both of these are right in the Needle version.

Also, if you'd checked the Voice's version of the singles results during the first 24-ish hours after they came out, you might have seen them before they included remix and carryover votes, so several things shifted around once that data was added.

yeah i think i updated my stuff after the first couple days, i was just confused by the more recent changes.

good orig. research cntndrzr--that's quite depressing.

to amuse myself, P&J top 20 singles broken down by similar categories (21, actually, through the two #16s):

would-be chartpop (billboard top 100, or close to it) - 15/21
appeared on the pitchfork playlist - 14/21
rated "best new music" on the playlist - 13/21
appeared on an album rated "best new music" - 13/21 (16/21 in either of these 2 categories)
appeared on an album in the P&J top 20 - 12/21
club pop (rap, r&b, dance) - 12/21
indie - 8/21
rap and r&b - 8/21
US top 40 - 7/21
electronic (excludes most rap and r&b) - 6/21
rock - 5/21 (4/5 indie)
US #1 - 2/21

Metal - 0/21

apparently no-one should vote for metal because it isn't popular enough and has only had 3 hit singles in 15 years, Glenn.

it would be pretty hilarious if Immortal won this one year

maybe if someone does a novelty ambient version? or the benny hill version somehow gets big

it's a shame that just trying to have any kind of conversation about larger trends in the way the electorate votes instantly gets people all defensive like you're trying to tell them what they shouldn't vote for or that they like the wrong things.

people vote for what they like, its no big deal really.

and its not really surprising that people vote for an album then vote for their favourite track or 2 from it if that is their fave songs of the year. It's just for some reason that the past year or 2 its beem one genre that is different from before. Plus songs can now be huge in certain circles without getting mainstream play, kinda how Country music has sold shitloads over the years without mainstream play. Eventually some other genre will do it instead of the current corporate "indie"

then of course the fans of current indie will get pissy about it.

i couldn't personally care less whether any of my fav metal albums win a Pazz and Jop poll. it's always annoyed me how so many metalheads simultaneously decry the mainstream ignoring the genre while also complaining when underground acts gain mainstream acceptance (granted I'm not talking about anybody here in ILX, more or less in other walks of life with fellow metalheads).

people vote for what they like, its no big deal really.

― Algerian Goalkeeper, Wednesday, January 26, 2011

this is a pretty stupid thing to say when one thing p&j does is give critics an overview of american criticism for them to look at and wonder abt

This was mentioned up thread, but it seems like it comes down to, "What is each individual person trying to accomplish with his or her ballot?"

1) "People should check out what I like" - trying to get songs or albums on the ballot that you think are important but underheard, i.e., more people need to hear these songs and albums b/c they are good and the cosmic balance would be righted if they are more widely appreciated

2) "We need to figure out the best music of the year-- this is what I think it is"

3) This list provides a corrective to "the best-selling songs/albums of the year"; those metrics represented what everyone liked, this is what is actually good. Same way (x) author will never sell as well as Danielle Steele.

4) We need to comb through what "sold and/or was heard by millions of people" and find out what among that pool was actually good"; I think this is what some dude wants

5) We need to comb through what was "hyped" by indie-oriented sites and figure out what was good;

6) We need to make an "interesting" list of what the man in the street has never heard of. To turn some stones and find music that will be new to most people.

All of these things-- and there are easily a dozen more-- are legitimate reasons for making a list. The question is: WHY ARE YOU MAKING YOUR LIST? And that motivation, when extrapolated to 700 people, becomes P&J.

I'm down with 1, 2 and 6

but the man in the street wont have heard of P&J
xp

ahh yes let's have a man on the street P&J so afroman can take it year in and out, even if he releases nothing

like the best male/female awards at The Brits? ;)

Annie Lennox walks P&J top album & singles for the 30th year in a row

1) In its first 20-odd years of existence, the P&J singles poll was markedly more populist and unpredictable than the albums poll, which made for an interesting counterpoint and went against the grain of a lot of stereotypes about the snobbishness or tunnel vision of music critics.

While I totally see how you could see it this way (and appreciate you spelling out exactly what your point as), you could also look at the 1997 poll and say it takes until #20 for a song to appear on the singles chart that wasn't a really big MTV hit. That's a less snobby tunnel, but if you're going to complain that songs are just indie album artists and songs from pitchfork/stereogum, you could say the wild populist unpredictability of earlier years is still well within a tunnel of its own.

Ehhh, I think the problem with that line of thought is that MTV in those days was open to lots of fairly marginal things that weren't exactly blowing up radio or the Hot 100.

Well, "the tunnel vision of music critics" was a reference to the stereotype of critics turning their noses up at things like MTV so yeah, I don't really see it that way. Besides, while MTV was still pretty central to pop culture in 1997, around the mid-'90s they stopped really breaking many new songs/artists and were mainly following radio's lead at that point in terms of what they were playing. And if I'm talking about critics listening to music outside the internet nerd bubble then it kind of goes without saying that MTV doesn't present problems for me as a primary music source the way Stereogum does (even if MTV in any era is obviously not without its own problems).

xpost - I dunno, Rev, what was in MTV rotation back then that wasn't on the radio too?

4) We need to comb through what "sold and/or was heard by millions of people" and find out what among that pool was actually good"; I think this is what some dude wants

If you're referring to the albums poll, you're absolutely wrong. If you're referring to the singles poll... you're still wrong.

you can even look back at the pre-mtv era and see a real shift as the network gained weight (Ian Dury had the #1 single of 1979, you know).

Well, "the tunnel vision of music critics" was a reference to the stereotype of critics turning their noses up at things like MTV so yeah, I don't really see it that way.

I wonder how much of this stereotype is generational - the fact that the critics weren't turning their noses up at it would suggest that.

you can even look back at the pre-mtv era and see a real shift as the network gained weight (Ian Dury had the #1 single of 1979, you know).

― da croupier, Thursday, January 27, 2011 7:29 AM (11 minutes ago) Bookmark

he also had a #1 on the UK pop charts with the same song

i really don't get why you think American critics liking UK hits with zero recognition here is somehow more "populist" than digging songs from bands that make the top 10 album charts in the US

like, Brit-popular new wave stuff would 100% be the Stereogum material of that time