Pazz and Jop 2010

Yeah, agree to disagree there, I guess. Voting for "Common People" is more populist than voting for an Arcade Fire song that wasn't even one of the 3 charting singles off their album, in my opinion.

"Bloodbuzz, Ohio" went top 20 in Belgium! Game changer.

xp Dury also hit with a two-sided single not from any album. (The 45 was included as a freebie inside certain copies of Do It Yourself, which unlike Dury's predecessor New Boots And Panties didn't place in the poll, but neither song was on the album itself.) And the song that got the most votes in 1979, M's "Pop Muzik," was a #1 pop single from an album that may well have received zero votes. (Xgau's essay: "In the end we decided not only to add all versions of a song together, but--as a tribute to the ancient concept of the two-sided single--to combine the votes for two songs that appeared on the same record. This is how Ian Dury beat out Robin Scott (a/k/a M), whose 'Pop Muzik' was certainly our song of the year.") And -- though this is maybe subjective -- it's not hard to see how both the Dury and M singles were major formal innovations -- i.e., new wave meets disco (meets early rap, in "Reasons To Be Cheerful"'s case) in pop form. And the top 10 that year also had big chart hits (Sister Sledge, the Knack), small chart hits (Flying Lizards), an indie rock hit (Brains), and Brit hits (Specials, Pretenders) from bands who either didn't have an album out yet or, if they did, didn't score on the album chart. (Fleetwood Mac did way better with "Tusk" the single than Tusk the album that year too. And Donna Summer did well on both charts, but had blown up the pop chart too -- both "Hot Stuff" and "Bad Girls" were multiple-week #1s.)

Brains not an indie rock "hit" i guess. (An actual single, though.) Anyway, that is one excellent Top 10 -- really varied, too.

yeah I wasn't saying it was a bad one, just noting the contrast to the MTV era

Also worth nothing you only needed 29 votes to top it in 1979 - if you broadened the polling base back then I think you'd probably see more laziness in some direction, be it "populist" (what you heard on casey kasem) or "indie" (trouser press stuff)

though obv its before my time so I dunno if just the popularity of 7-inches played a big stake in keeping things more single-y and less push track-y.

all I'm really saying, to reiterate a point from the article I linked upthread, is that we can make fun of the group of critics that named Imperial Bedroom the album of the year, but they could've put "Man Out Of Time" or something in the singles poll, and instead they chose "The Message" and "Sexual Healing."

xp Yeah, 7-inches were clearly part of it -- 12-inches (disco discs) too, in some cases. Something critics could hold in their hands.

But my point is that, with both the Trouser Press cult items and the legit pop hits, lots of what seemed to score high then seemed to be songs off albums that critics didn't particularly otherwise care about (or albums that didn't exist). I'd have to look over this year's chart (can somebody else, please? I'm busy), but who is scoring high these days with singles off albums that Pazz&Jop placings seem to agree are definite drop-offs from the band's previous albums? M.I.A.? Hold Steady? (Didn't they put a single in or near the Top 40?) That's what Dury sort of did in 1979 (albeit with a technically non-album single), and Fleetwood Mac, and I think Funkadelic further down the chart (which I also don't have time to actually look at right now.) Get the idea that happens less these days too, but I could be wrong.

Metal - 0/21

― glenn mcdonald, Wednesday, January 26, 2011 9:49 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

apparently no-one should vote for metal because it isn't popular enough and has only had 3 hit singles in 15 years, Glenn.

― Algerian Goalkeeper, Wednesday, January 26, 2011 9:51 PM (Yesterday) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

Dude, I am a HUGE metalhead (and one of the "vote more metal, critics" choir) and even I can see that it's not exactly a singles genre right now. I had Deftones "Rocket Skates" on my ballot, but like I couldn't even think of 10 legitimate, commercially released SINGLES I could put on an awesome metal ballot

Like I'm really into certain rando Rotting Christ and Dillinger and Torche album tracks, but I would exactly call any of them "singles" by any stretch of the imigination.

what i'm saying is, pick your battles

Would die a happy man hearing Casey Kasem introduce Rotting Christ

is that we can make fun of the group of critics that named Imperial Bedroom the album of the year, but they could've put "Man Out Of Time" or something in the singles poll, and instead they chose "The Message" and "Sexual Healing."

Fair enough, but I think this would hold a little more weight with me if if I felt like the p'n'j critics today were ignoring "The Message" and "Sexual Healing."

The "pop needs to be as good now as it was then for this argument to hold water" thing is like...is indie/college rock so much better now than it was then?

I'd put Imperial Bedroom and High Violet pretty even in my estimation

Fair enough, but I think this would hold a little more weight with me if if I felt like the p'n'j critics today were ignoring "The Message" and "Sexual Healing."

― da croupier, Thursday, January 27, 2011 8:35 AM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i think they do ignore much better songs all the time??

I never doubted you did??

i meant much better than the ones they vote for, on par w/ the message & sexual healing, not that there are tons of songs better than those

I'd put Imperial Bedroom and High Violet pretty even in my estimation

― da croupier, Thursday, January 27, 2011 10:14 AM (52 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

if we're gonna have a convenient-comparison-point-off, High Violet finished at #8, the same spot previously occupied by Zen Arcade, Life's Rich Pageant, and Bee Thousand.

i guess i take rock critics rating/overrating indie as more of a given than rock critics remembering to give a shout-out to this year's "tubthumping"

again, i'm not really denying this isn't a trend or noteworthy, but reducing it to "people used to be cool with pop and now they just read stereogum" ignores the stranglehold of MTV - you didn't have to go out of your way to hear that shit. If people don't wanna let "OMG" get its hooks in them, or god forbid prefer some indie jam, I don't think this is a major crime on their part.

that's kind of been my point this entire time? i mean i haven't really bitched about the albums results because it's Chinatown, but the singles results used to go against my more pessimistic expectations of critics and they don't as much anymore. (xpost)

Would die a happy man hearing Casey Kasem introduce Rotting Christ

― eep opp ork ah ah...and that means suck my dick (San Te),

is Casey Kasem still alive?

rotting casey could announce it.

anyway, if you really want to know how the singles list would look differently if all the non-charting songs weren't there and the people voted for singles they way I think they used to --

songs that would move into the top 10*: Window Seat, Teenage Dream, Soldier Of Love, Telephone

songs that would enter the top 25*: California Gurls, Born Free, Rude Boy, Ready To Start (ha), Stylo, Nothin' On You, Airplanes, Dog Days Are Over, Hard In Da Paint, Little Lion Man

*based on what was or wasn't in the top 10 or top 25 on the Voice site last week, not the way it currently is with ties moving a bunch of songs arbitrarily up in rank

to point out what glenn has repeatedly, though

what moves out of the top ten: runaway, monster, power

no, they all charted, so they'd move up from 4-5-6 to 3-4-5. where did Glenn say that?

https://pub.needlebase.com/actions/visualizer/V2Visualizer.do?domain=Pazz-Jop&query=2010+Non-Album+Song+Ranking

that's a completely different set of criteria than what I just described.

oh woops, i thought you were talking about if you removed the people who voted for albums and singles from the same artist xpost

got confused because i assumed your complaint was with those lazy folks, and not those who dared to vote for songs that weren't pop hits

my above post was based on removing the blue-colored songs listed here: https://pub.needlebase.com/actions/visualizer/V2Visualizer.do?domain=P-J-B&query=Pazz+%26+Jop (notice how much more blue 2009 and 2010 are than any previous year)

although I didn't know "Bloodbuzz Ohio" charted in Belgium until you mentioned it, so it erroneously lists that as a non-charting song

I realize that if you didn't imbue my posts with meanings they didn't have by paraphrasing them with words I never used ("lazy" or "daring" not to vote for hits) we wouldn't have much to argue about but...I'd be fine with that, actually.

if you think saying critics are confirming to your pessimistic view of them and aren't "necessarily voting for the best songs, just the most critic-friendly" is too far of a stretch from "lazy," I apologize

Lol Kasems alive, he's 78 and voiced Shaggys dad on Scooby Doo Mystery Incorporated last year.

Zoinks Scoob, it's a R-R-R-R-R-R-ROTTING CHRIST!

RUH ROH!

casey kasem comes from the neoplatonistic druze sect of palestine. which is pretty troo and kult.

if you think saying critics are confirming to your pessimistic view of them and aren't "necessarily voting for the best songs, just the most critic-friendly" is too far of a stretch from "lazy," I apologize

― da croupier, Thursday, January 27, 2011 11:46 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

and if you think my words are damning of my own argument enough on their own, you shouldn't have to introduce new verbiage when summarizing what you think I believe.

do you guys even remember what you're arguing about?

if the difference between a song being blue lined or carrying an asterisk in the "did it chart" thing is that something wasn't thought to be considered a single, I think a outmoded use of "single" is being used there. The vast majority of those 2009-2010 tracks had one or more of the following apply: they had videos, they were released as vinyl singles, they were released as "promo mp3s" (which is basically a modern version of a single...hell, a lot of pop songs in the U.S. don't have physical product singles.)

Not sure what else something needs to do to be a single these days, unless your definition is just purposefully built in order to keep out certain kinds of music. And even then it's all pointless anyway since anything is eligible for the charts regardless of whether some record label took the time to promote it. I guess most of the 100 or so Cast of Glee charting songs magically become singles just because they get purchased digitally. Not sure how that makes them more of a "single" by the pre-digital definition than, say, Girls songs that have actual 12" and 7" single releases, but hey.

and if you think my words are damning of my own argument enough on their own, you shouldn't have to introduce new verbiage when summarizing what you think I believe.

you've known anthony long enough that you should be more accepting of his insightful but often reductive quips! (xpost)

― Magill: a gorilla (some dude), Thursday, January 13, 2011 4:55 PM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark

talking about glenn's work here: https://pub.needlebase.com/actions/visualizer/V2Visualizer.do?domain=P-J-B&query=Pazz+%26+Jop

unless your definition is just purposefully built in order to keep out certain kinds of music.

nail hit on head

I'm not saying non-charting songs aren't singles, shouldn't be considered singles and/or shouldn't be voted for in singles polls fwiw.

xpost lol anthony

do you guys even remember what you're arguing about?

new board decription plz

cosign

btw the "P&J&B" page you just linked, i collected most of that info and decided how it was presented, Glenn mainly helped out with the technical stuff of getting onto Needle and, as evidenced by his posts ITT, doesn't necessarily agree with any of the conclusions I've drawn form it.

and I will take arguing w/ croup at his most glib over most of the butthurt goon squad i end up on the same ILM threads with more often any day of the week. it's just really exasperating that I've a) spent a lot of time compiling this info and thinking about it and b) have thought about almost every counter-argument before it was even brought up here and worded my posts very carefully because of that and c) still get a bunch of defensive zings about how I'm trying to be the thought police or the popism gestapo or something.

Not sure what else something needs to do to be a single these days, unless your definition is just purposefully built in order to keep out certain kinds of music. And even then it's all pointless anyway since anything is eligible for the charts regardless of whether some record label took the time to promote it. I guess most of the 100 or so Cast of Glee charting songs magically become singles just because they get purchased digitally. Not sure how that makes them more of a "single" by the pre-digital definition than, say, Girls songs that have actual 12" and 7" single releases, but hey.

― scottpl, Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:06 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

The fact that pretty much any song is eligible to chart, and that only a small percentage of them do (although still thousands and thousands and thousands every year), is exactly why I compiled the data the way I did and why I think it illustrates the point I'm trying to make. There have ALWAYS been non-charting indie-niche singles on the P&J singles chart, but the number of them in the top 10 or top 25 in any given year has multiplied several times over lately. Obviously there are a lot of new channels for singles and solitary songs to reach an audience now that aren't measured by Billboard, and I've never said that that's a bad thing.