Pazz and Jop 2010

got confused because i assumed your complaint was with those lazy folks, and not those who dared to vote for songs that weren't pop hits

my above post was based on removing the blue-colored songs listed here: https://pub.needlebase.com/actions/visualizer/V2Visualizer.do?domain=P-J-B&query=Pazz+%26+Jop (notice how much more blue 2009 and 2010 are than any previous year)

although I didn't know "Bloodbuzz Ohio" charted in Belgium until you mentioned it, so it erroneously lists that as a non-charting song

I realize that if you didn't imbue my posts with meanings they didn't have by paraphrasing them with words I never used ("lazy" or "daring" not to vote for hits) we wouldn't have much to argue about but...I'd be fine with that, actually.

if you think saying critics are confirming to your pessimistic view of them and aren't "necessarily voting for the best songs, just the most critic-friendly" is too far of a stretch from "lazy," I apologize

Lol Kasems alive, he's 78 and voiced Shaggys dad on Scooby Doo Mystery Incorporated last year.

Zoinks Scoob, it's a R-R-R-R-R-R-ROTTING CHRIST!

RUH ROH!

casey kasem comes from the neoplatonistic druze sect of palestine. which is pretty troo and kult.

if you think saying critics are confirming to your pessimistic view of them and aren't "necessarily voting for the best songs, just the most critic-friendly" is too far of a stretch from "lazy," I apologize

― da croupier, Thursday, January 27, 2011 11:46 AM (9 minutes ago) Bookmark

and if you think my words are damning of my own argument enough on their own, you shouldn't have to introduce new verbiage when summarizing what you think I believe.

do you guys even remember what you're arguing about?

if the difference between a song being blue lined or carrying an asterisk in the "did it chart" thing is that something wasn't thought to be considered a single, I think a outmoded use of "single" is being used there. The vast majority of those 2009-2010 tracks had one or more of the following apply: they had videos, they were released as vinyl singles, they were released as "promo mp3s" (which is basically a modern version of a single...hell, a lot of pop songs in the U.S. don't have physical product singles.)

Not sure what else something needs to do to be a single these days, unless your definition is just purposefully built in order to keep out certain kinds of music. And even then it's all pointless anyway since anything is eligible for the charts regardless of whether some record label took the time to promote it. I guess most of the 100 or so Cast of Glee charting songs magically become singles just because they get purchased digitally. Not sure how that makes them more of a "single" by the pre-digital definition than, say, Girls songs that have actual 12" and 7" single releases, but hey.

and if you think my words are damning of my own argument enough on their own, you shouldn't have to introduce new verbiage when summarizing what you think I believe.

you've known anthony long enough that you should be more accepting of his insightful but often reductive quips! (xpost)

― Magill: a gorilla (some dude), Thursday, January 13, 2011 4:55 PM (2 weeks ago) Bookmark

talking about glenn's work here: https://pub.needlebase.com/actions/visualizer/V2Visualizer.do?domain=P-J-B&query=Pazz+%26+Jop

unless your definition is just purposefully built in order to keep out certain kinds of music.

nail hit on head

I'm not saying non-charting songs aren't singles, shouldn't be considered singles and/or shouldn't be voted for in singles polls fwiw.

xpost lol anthony

do you guys even remember what you're arguing about?

new board decription plz

cosign

btw the "P&J&B" page you just linked, i collected most of that info and decided how it was presented, Glenn mainly helped out with the technical stuff of getting onto Needle and, as evidenced by his posts ITT, doesn't necessarily agree with any of the conclusions I've drawn form it.

and I will take arguing w/ croup at his most glib over most of the butthurt goon squad i end up on the same ILM threads with more often any day of the week. it's just really exasperating that I've a) spent a lot of time compiling this info and thinking about it and b) have thought about almost every counter-argument before it was even brought up here and worded my posts very carefully because of that and c) still get a bunch of defensive zings about how I'm trying to be the thought police or the popism gestapo or something.

Not sure what else something needs to do to be a single these days, unless your definition is just purposefully built in order to keep out certain kinds of music. And even then it's all pointless anyway since anything is eligible for the charts regardless of whether some record label took the time to promote it. I guess most of the 100 or so Cast of Glee charting songs magically become singles just because they get purchased digitally. Not sure how that makes them more of a "single" by the pre-digital definition than, say, Girls songs that have actual 12" and 7" single releases, but hey.

― scottpl, Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:06 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark

The fact that pretty much any song is eligible to chart, and that only a small percentage of them do (although still thousands and thousands and thousands every year), is exactly why I compiled the data the way I did and why I think it illustrates the point I'm trying to make. There have ALWAYS been non-charting indie-niche singles on the P&J singles chart, but the number of them in the top 10 or top 25 in any given year has multiplied several times over lately. Obviously there are a lot of new channels for singles and solitary songs to reach an audience now that aren't measured by Billboard, and I've never said that that's a bad thing.

you've said people are living up to negative stereotypes of critics and only liking criticy-stuff because of a lack of big pop hits compared to the MTV era and the fact that there are a lot of schmindie fucks who loved High Violet and a lot of schmindie fucks who loved "Bloodbuzz, Ohio" (and hell, I'M weirded out that the overlap between those two groups isn't larger). you may not be reaching lex levels of bile, but there's definitely some indie-shaming going on here.

are ppl disagreeing with his argument about the general trend, though? is that otm or no?

well, if I offered absolutely no editorial opinion on what the numbers mean then we wouldn't be discussing it because it would probably look to most other people like a bunch of numbers. I had to assemble it into some kind of narrative, and I really think that narrative was value-neutral more often than it wasn't, so I just get concerned about people thinking I'm telling them what to listen to, how to think about it or what to vote for. (xpost)

I could also see most of the groups in the top 20 having more of a chart presence if MTV was around to push them. "Bloodbuzz, Ohio" would SO be a Buzz Clip and then would easily make the Modern Rock top 20.

yeah I don't know all of these songs well enough to make a call on that. but in a world where Arcade Fire and Phoenix DO chart on Modern Rock, I kind of feel like if the National or Sleigh Bells or Ariel Pink's Haunted Graffiti or LCD Soundsystem or Deerhunter were ever going to appear on that chart, they would've by now.

There have ALWAYS been non-charting indie-niche singles on the P&J singles chart, but the number of them in the top 10 or top 25 in any given year has multiplied several times over lately. Obviously there are a lot of new channels for singles and solitary songs to reach an audience now that aren't measured by Billboard, and I've never said that that's a bad thing.

yeah, but you all are placing way too much importance on "charting." used to be (in the 80s and 90s) that the alt-y "modern rock" stuff would show up on MTV, then break out (if it was gonna) and get picked up by radio. as the 90s wore on, i guess radio didn't need MTV guidance so much, the point was that there as an "official channel" for this stuff, so to speak.

nowadays, that isn't the case. and pitchfork/blogs are just as much "the radio" as they are "magazines." when something blows up in p-fork blogland, it's not just critics & nerds liking it, it's basically a hit. lots and lots of people are getting their music that way, and passing it on to their friends and college radio programmers and w/e. the national being big in that sphere is a lot like john cougar being big on MTV.

I get what you're saying and I think it's true to some extent, but not as far as you're taking it. I think if the proverbial "man on the street" were asked how many songs in this year's top 20 they could hum, it'd be a lot lower than 5 or 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, unless that man on the street happened to white and/or college-age and/or pretty 'with it.'

you could be talking about the top 20 singles on billboard too

haha except the "white" part

so a random person you grabbed on the street would be just as likely to know Sleigh Bells or Ariel Pink songs as they would Pitbull or Bruno Mars? really?

why are we all in the 2010 thread?

the Village Voice site refers to the Pazz & Jop poll that surveys the music of 2010 and releases its results in 2011 as "Pazz & Jop 2010," and so this thread does follow suit

so a random person you grabbed on the street would be just as likely to know Sleigh Bells or Ariel Pink songs as they would Pitbull or Bruno Mars? really?

you're misrepresenting what you wrote - think if the proverbial "man on the street" were asked how many songs in this year's top 20 they could hum, it'd be a lot lower than 5 or 10 or 20 or 30 years ago

http://alto.to.free.fr/arcade_room/images/pong.jpg

I know, I know but -- seriously, I count maybe 10, at most 12 songs on this year's P&J top 20 that a person has a good chance of knowing if they're not relatively young and/or spend a good amount of time browsing music sites. most of the Billboard top 20 is either oppressively ubiquitous or probably will be in a few weeks. xpost

what i'd probably hypothesize from all this is, as the music monoculture loses its weight and its easier and easier to focus on your niche (and honestly, harder and harder to not), critics are feeling less of a need to acknowledge/pay respects to what's left of it, though as the kanye singles-albums crossover suggests, they LOVE to when the opportunity arises

Conversely, ask the average person on ilx what Edward Maya & Vika Jigulina's "Stereo Love" sounds like

what i'd probably hypothesize from all this is, as the music monoculture loses its weight and its easier and easier to focus on your niche (and honestly, harder and harder to not), critics are feeling less of a need to acknowledge/pay respects to what's left of it, though as the kanye singles-albums crossover suggests, they LOVE to when the opportunity arises

― da croupier, Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:21 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah ive been saying a similar thing w/ rap (and rap singles) as a whole this year, it seemed really noticeable to me -- rap is again an 'underground thing' the way it was in the early 90s

what i'd probably hypothesize from all this is, as the music monoculture loses its weight and its easier and easier to focus on your niche (and honestly, harder and harder to not), critics are feeling less of a need to acknowledge/pay respects to what's left of it, though as the kanye singles-albums crossover suggests, they LOVE to when the opportunity arises

― da croupier, Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:21 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark

yeah totally. Kanye will probably be the placeholder "hey look a chart-topping pop phenomenon on my ballot!" artist for a lot of critics for a long time.

gaga, jay-z, kanye, the "artist" stars are still doing fine on pazz single charts, it's the random earworms that gain their power in part from being inescapable that are falling down the charts because its easier and easier to escape them

in terms of how its treated by critics, i mean, not in terms of popularity per se xxp

gaga, jay-z, kanye, the "artist" stars are still doing fine on pazz single charts, it's the random earworms that gain their power in part from being inescapable that are falling down the charts because its easier and easier to escape them

― da croupier, Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:25 PM (48 seconds ago) Bookmark

this is definitely true. says a lot that "Empire" was Jay's first P&J #1.

like i guarantee every time i've heard "OMG" I've enjoyed it just a little more, but fuck you if you think i'm just gonna make myself experience it they way I did a top ten song in the nineties

that song? oh heavens no, no argument there.

haha actually, I hated most pop shit as a teen in the 90s, but judging from p'n'j critics had a little more stockholm syndrome going on back in the day

like i guarantee every time i've heard "OMG" I've enjoyed it just a little more, but fuck you if you think i'm just gonna make myself experience it they way I did a top ten song in the nineties

― da croupier, Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:27 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

this is a weird song that way. really ingratiating in a way that encourages resistance

I'd like to ask everybody, reviewers (whether you voted or not) and non-reviewers too: in what way do you find P&J to be useful? As a shopping list (and/or list of Musts To Avoid, Subjects For Further Research, like for listening without paying for it)? Or confirming suspicions, unexpected revelations, mildly entertaining means of procrastination, other, none of the above, not at all?

stunting

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6qk1AFH9Y4

in years past it was great as a shopping list. lately, for me, it's more of a porthole in what the crithivemind off ILX thinks
also good for finding people with similar tastes and then seeing what they like

I look at it as the closest thing to a complete survey of critical consensus that exists, kind of the final word after all the other mags and sites have done their staff lists representing a smaller piece of the pie. So sometimes it lines up with what those other lists showed, sometimes it's a surprise, but it's always interesting and kind of gives a last chance to look at the year as a whole and make some sense of it before moving onto the next year.