Not sure what else something needs to do to be a single these days, unless your definition is just purposefully built in order to keep out certain kinds of music. And even then it's all pointless anyway since anything is eligible for the charts regardless of whether some record label took the time to promote it. I guess most of the 100 or so Cast of Glee charting songs magically become singles just because they get purchased digitally. Not sure how that makes them more of a "single" by the pre-digital definition than, say, Girls songs that have actual 12" and 7" single releases, but hey.
― scottpl, Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:06 PM (8 minutes ago) Bookmark
The fact that pretty much any song is eligible to chart, and that only a small percentage of them do (although still thousands and thousands and thousands every year), is exactly why I compiled the data the way I did and why I think it illustrates the point I'm trying to make. There have ALWAYS been non-charting indie-niche singles on the P&J singles chart, but the number of them in the top 10 or top 25 in any given year has multiplied several times over lately. Obviously there are a lot of new channels for singles and solitary songs to reach an audience now that aren't measured by Billboard, and I've never said that that's a bad thing.
― --nakhchi vane (some dude), Thursday, 27 January 2011 17:20 (thirteen years ago) link
you've said people are living up to negative stereotypes of critics and only liking criticy-stuff because of a lack of big pop hits compared to the MTV era and the fact that there are a lot of schmindie fucks who loved High Violet and a lot of schmindie fucks who loved "Bloodbuzz, Ohio" (and hell, I'M weirded out that the overlap between those two groups isn't larger). you may not be reaching lex levels of bile, but there's definitely some indie-shaming going on here.
― da croupier, Thursday, 27 January 2011 17:25 (thirteen years ago) link
are ppl disagreeing with his argument about the general trend, though? is that otm or no?
― tuomascratch beat (deej), Thursday, 27 January 2011 17:27 (thirteen years ago) link
well, if I offered absolutely no editorial opinion on what the numbers mean then we wouldn't be discussing it because it would probably look to most other people like a bunch of numbers. I had to assemble it into some kind of narrative, and I really think that narrative was value-neutral more often than it wasn't, so I just get concerned about people thinking I'm telling them what to listen to, how to think about it or what to vote for. (xpost)
― --nakhchi vane (some dude), Thursday, 27 January 2011 17:28 (thirteen years ago) link
I could also see most of the groups in the top 20 having more of a chart presence if MTV was around to push them. "Bloodbuzz, Ohio" would SO be a Buzz Clip and then would easily make the Modern Rock top 20.
― da croupier, Thursday, 27 January 2011 17:30 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah I don't know all of these songs well enough to make a call on that. but in a world where Arcade Fire and Phoenix DO chart on Modern Rock, I kind of feel like if the National or Sleigh Bells or Ariel Pink's Haunted Graffiti or LCD Soundsystem or Deerhunter were ever going to appear on that chart, they would've by now.
― --nakhchi vane (some dude), Thursday, 27 January 2011 17:32 (thirteen years ago) link
There have ALWAYS been non-charting indie-niche singles on the P&J singles chart, but the number of them in the top 10 or top 25 in any given year has multiplied several times over lately. Obviously there are a lot of new channels for singles and solitary songs to reach an audience now that aren't measured by Billboard, and I've never said that that's a bad thing.
yeah, but you all are placing way too much importance on "charting." used to be (in the 80s and 90s) that the alt-y "modern rock" stuff would show up on MTV, then break out (if it was gonna) and get picked up by radio. as the 90s wore on, i guess radio didn't need MTV guidance so much, the point was that there as an "official channel" for this stuff, so to speak.
nowadays, that isn't the case. and pitchfork/blogs are just as much "the radio" as they are "magazines." when something blows up in p-fork blogland, it's not just critics & nerds liking it, it's basically a hit. lots and lots of people are getting their music that way, and passing it on to their friends and college radio programmers and w/e. the national being big in that sphere is a lot like john cougar being big on MTV.
― normal_fantasy-unicorns (contenderizer), Thursday, 27 January 2011 17:54 (thirteen years ago) link
I get what you're saying and I think it's true to some extent, but not as far as you're taking it. I think if the proverbial "man on the street" were asked how many songs in this year's top 20 they could hum, it'd be a lot lower than 5 or 10 or 20 or 30 years ago, unless that man on the street happened to white and/or college-age and/or pretty 'with it.'
― --nakhchi vane (some dude), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:00 (thirteen years ago) link
you could be talking about the top 20 singles on billboard too
― da croupier, Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:03 (thirteen years ago) link
haha except the "white" part
so a random person you grabbed on the street would be just as likely to know Sleigh Bells or Ariel Pink songs as they would Pitbull or Bruno Mars? really?
― williamstevenjames (some dude), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:11 (thirteen years ago) link
why are we all in the 2010 thread?
― when the president talks to based god (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:13 (thirteen years ago) link
the Village Voice site refers to the Pazz & Jop poll that surveys the music of 2010 and releases its results in 2011 as "Pazz & Jop 2010," and so this thread does follow suit
― williamstevenjames (some dude), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:14 (thirteen years ago) link
you're misrepresenting what you wrote - think if the proverbial "man on the street" were asked how many songs in this year's top 20 they could hum, it'd be a lot lower than 5 or 10 or 20 or 30 years ago
― da croupier, Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:14 (thirteen years ago) link
http://alto.to.free.fr/arcade_room/images/pong.jpg
― eep opp ork ah ah...and that means suck my dick (San Te), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:18 (thirteen years ago) link
I know, I know but -- seriously, I count maybe 10, at most 12 songs on this year's P&J top 20 that a person has a good chance of knowing if they're not relatively young and/or spend a good amount of time browsing music sites. most of the Billboard top 20 is either oppressively ubiquitous or probably will be in a few weeks. xpost
― williamstevenjames (some dude), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:20 (thirteen years ago) link
what i'd probably hypothesize from all this is, as the music monoculture loses its weight and its easier and easier to focus on your niche (and honestly, harder and harder to not), critics are feeling less of a need to acknowledge/pay respects to what's left of it, though as the kanye singles-albums crossover suggests, they LOVE to when the opportunity arises
― da croupier, Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:21 (thirteen years ago) link
Conversely, ask the average person on ilx what Edward Maya & Vika Jigulina's "Stereo Love" sounds like
― when the president talks to based god (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:23 (thirteen years ago) link
― da croupier, Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:21 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
yeah ive been saying a similar thing w/ rap (and rap singles) as a whole this year, it seemed really noticeable to me -- rap is again an 'underground thing' the way it was in the early 90s
― tuomascratch beat (deej), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:24 (thirteen years ago) link
― da croupier, Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:21 PM (1 minute ago) Bookmark
yeah totally. Kanye will probably be the placeholder "hey look a chart-topping pop phenomenon on my ballot!" artist for a lot of critics for a long time.
― williamstevenjames (some dude), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:24 (thirteen years ago) link
gaga, jay-z, kanye, the "artist" stars are still doing fine on pazz single charts, it's the random earworms that gain their power in part from being inescapable that are falling down the charts because its easier and easier to escape them
― da croupier, Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:25 (thirteen years ago) link
in terms of how its treated by critics, i mean, not in terms of popularity per se xxp
― tuomascratch beat (deej), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:25 (thirteen years ago) link
― da croupier, Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:25 PM (48 seconds ago) Bookmark
this is definitely true. says a lot that "Empire" was Jay's first P&J #1.
― williamstevenjames (some dude), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:26 (thirteen years ago) link
like i guarantee every time i've heard "OMG" I've enjoyed it just a little more, but fuck you if you think i'm just gonna make myself experience it they way I did a top ten song in the nineties
― da croupier, Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:27 (thirteen years ago) link
that song? oh heavens no, no argument there.
― williamstevenjames (some dude), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:31 (thirteen years ago) link
haha actually, I hated most pop shit as a teen in the 90s, but judging from p'n'j critics had a little more stockholm syndrome going on back in the day
― da croupier, Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:32 (thirteen years ago) link
― da croupier, Thursday, January 27, 2011 12:27 PM (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
this is a weird song that way. really ingratiating in a way that encourages resistance
― tuomascratch beat (deej), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:34 (thirteen years ago) link
I'd like to ask everybody, reviewers (whether you voted or not) and non-reviewers too: in what way do you find P&J to be useful? As a shopping list (and/or list of Musts To Avoid, Subjects For Further Research, like for listening without paying for it)? Or confirming suspicions, unexpected revelations, mildly entertaining means of procrastination, other, none of the above, not at all?
― dow, Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:40 (thirteen years ago) link
stunting
― tuomascratch beat (deej), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:42 (thirteen years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6qk1AFH9Y4
in years past it was great as a shopping list. lately, for me, it's more of a porthole in what the crithivemind off ILX thinksalso good for finding people with similar tastes and then seeing what they like
― i turned my head n boom I saw that tweet #wow (forksclovetofu), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:43 (thirteen years ago) link
I look at it as the closest thing to a complete survey of critical consensus that exists, kind of the final word after all the other mags and sites have done their staff lists representing a smaller piece of the pie. So sometimes it lines up with what those other lists showed, sometimes it's a surprise, but it's always interesting and kind of gives a last chance to look at the year as a whole and make some sense of it before moving onto the next year.
― williamstevenjames (some dude), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:45 (thirteen years ago) link
yeah ive been saying a similar thing w/ rap (and rap singles) as a whole this year, it seemed really noticeable to me -- rap is again an 'underground thing' the way it was in the early 90s― tuomascratch beat (deej), Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:24 PM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
― tuomascratch beat (deej), Thursday, January 27, 2011 1:24 PM (27 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink
its really has a lot to do with how rock critics GET (or don't get) rap music.
Like I think about 2010 and I had to do ACTUAL WORK to hear shit like E-40, Rick Ross, Roc Marciano, Jacka, Roach Gigz, Yelawolf, etc...
• Major labels aren;t servicing writers these records• Mixtapes are getting lost in this enormous shuffle of material• Sites like Pfork/Stereogum/BrooklynVeg that are donimating the inter discourse all marganilize these artists to some extent (exceptions are stuff like Lil B, Odd Future, Big KRIT)
Like I had to download shit, traverse Nah Right's impossible format, read blogs, read ILX. On the other hand The National just showed up in my inbox one day and everyone wouldnt shut up about it after
Part of it is "oh rock critcs, do your fuckin homework", but then like really does anyone expect them to?
― when the president talks to based god (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 27 January 2011 18:59 (thirteen years ago) link
ie, I had to actually DO SOMETHING to learn that E-40 made a good record. I didn't have to do anything but press a link in an email we all got when Ariel Pink did something
― when the president talks to based god (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:00 (thirteen years ago) link
i get lots & lots of rap emails but its all for garbage
― tuomascratch beat (deej), Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:01 (thirteen years ago) link
^i'm sayin!
― when the president talks to based god (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:02 (thirteen years ago) link
make that point #4
i didnt start getting say DaVinci emails until after i reviewed him lol
― tuomascratch beat (deej), Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:03 (thirteen years ago) link
& yeah i mean husalah follows the somanyshrimp twitter but i have to do youtube - uploaded in the past week searches to find out if hes got any new releases
― tuomascratch beat (deej), Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:04 (thirteen years ago) link
so it's like how can we really expect a National fan to be following Husulah on YouTube?
― when the president talks to based god (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:08 (thirteen years ago) link
imo this is a failure of major labels to engage w/ rap any more
― tuomascratch beat (deej), Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:14 (thirteen years ago) link
i think there is a general failure of major labelsto engage with most music genres tbh
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:16 (thirteen years ago) link
yah def
― tuomascratch beat (deej), Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:17 (thirteen years ago) link
you & I mention it about rap & metal a lot but really just about every genre is in the same boat. I suppose it's no surprise that they value making up for lost revenue by going for a quick buck with idol/xfactor stuff,but you cant tell me there aren't good stuff in every genre that couldn't crossover with a little help. I know there's plenty of good stuff in metal that could do that, but the majors would rather push utter shit like avenged sevenfold rather than letting good bands develop at their own pace like in the old days with say the thrash big 4. I do feel that there's enough good bands that could sell well as well as being actually good bands and critical faves and im pretty sure its the same with rap and other genres. Guy Hands at EMI is perfect example of a guy not having a clue about music.
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:27 (thirteen years ago) link
I've said this before, obviously, but I think the P&J is most interesting because it's the only sizable poll that actually lets you see the votes. The bigger the electorate, the less interesting the "results" necessarily become, but the more other insight you can extract from the data. Even if all you do is wander from album to voter to song to voter to album, like you could do on the Voice's own site long before I had anything to do with it, this is a fascinating associative journey through an assemblage (however arbitrary) of brains that are at least nominally engaged in thinking about music. Sometimes it helps me personally discover music I like, but more often it helps me understand relationships and affinities in music I *don't* necessarily listen to myself.
― glenn mcdonald, Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:31 (thirteen years ago) link
Algie, I will say that as someone who covers both fairly equally, it's remarkably easier to keep up with metal than rap through critic channels
― when the president talks to based god (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:54 (thirteen years ago) link
Although def not as easy as indie rock, which is why like all good metal bands get indie praise on the record AFTER their good one
― when the president talks to based god (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:56 (thirteen years ago) link
Probably because metal has really become an albums genre now? (same as indie i guess)
also lol Algie
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:58 (thirteen years ago) link
You're right. But weren't you the one complaining there's no metal in the singles list?
― when the president talks to based god (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, 27 January 2011 19:59 (thirteen years ago) link
wasn't exactly complaining, Glenn pointed out there was none and i probably spoke a lotta shit as usual :)
Still say Nachtmystium - No Funeral deserved to be top 20, just a shame no sod has heard it. Plus the likes of High On Fire and Torche for example make great songs as well as albums and I find it strange they get ignored by radio as much as critics.
― Algerian Goalkeeper, Thursday, 27 January 2011 20:03 (thirteen years ago) link