Pazz and Jop 2010

imo this is a failure of major labels to engage w/ rap any more

i think there is a general failure of major labelsto engage with most music genres tbh

yah def

you & I mention it about rap & metal a lot but really just about every genre is in the same boat. I suppose it's no surprise that they value making up for lost revenue by going for a quick buck with idol/xfactor stuff,but you cant tell me there aren't good stuff in every genre that couldn't crossover with a little help. I know there's plenty of good stuff in metal that could do that, but the majors would rather push utter shit like avenged sevenfold rather than letting good bands develop at their own pace like in the old days with say the thrash big 4. I do feel that there's enough good bands that could sell well as well as being actually good bands and critical faves and im pretty sure its the same with rap and other genres. Guy Hands at EMI is perfect example of a guy not having a clue about music.

I've said this before, obviously, but I think the P&J is most interesting because it's the only sizable poll that actually lets you see the votes. The bigger the electorate, the less interesting the "results" necessarily become, but the more other insight you can extract from the data. Even if all you do is wander from album to voter to song to voter to album, like you could do on the Voice's own site long before I had anything to do with it, this is a fascinating associative journey through an assemblage (however arbitrary) of brains that are at least nominally engaged in thinking about music. Sometimes it helps me personally discover music I like, but more often it helps me understand relationships and affinities in music I *don't* necessarily listen to myself.

Algie, I will say that as someone who covers both fairly equally, it's remarkably easier to keep up with metal than rap through critic channels

Although def not as easy as indie rock, which is why like all good metal bands get indie praise on the record AFTER their good one

Algie, I will say that as someone who covers both fairly equally, it's remarkably easier to keep up with metal than rap through critic channels

Probably because metal has really become an albums genre now? (same as indie i guess)

also lol Algie

You're right. But weren't you the one complaining there's no metal in the singles list?

wasn't exactly complaining, Glenn pointed out there was none and i probably spoke a lotta shit as usual :)

Still say Nachtmystium - No Funeral deserved to be top 20, just a shame no sod has heard it. Plus the likes of High On Fire and Torche for example make great songs as well as albums and I find it strange they get ignored by radio as much as critics.

I was thinking about that this morning and wondering about the metal songs (not nu metal) in the 2000s that kind took a life of their own and felt like cult singles in the metal world on the level of Bloodbuzz Ohio

Queens Of The Stone Age - "Feel Good Hit Of The Summer"
Mastodon - "Blood And Thunder"
High On Fire - "Devilution"
Boris - "Farewell"
Dillinger Escape Plan - "Black Bubblegum"

and like that's it?

obv if you include nu-metal bands and emocore theres tons more

i don't know about d.e.p. but it feels kinda telling that the rest of those are opening tracks on their albs

I think we need a rolling thread where we can actually list/post links to youtube for songs like that from the last 10 years to try get ilxors to check stuff out they wouldn't normally. When i see some of the crap rock the goons for example like (sorry guys) i cant help feeling that they might dig some stuff the rolling metal dudes like if they just heard it. Radip etc isn't going to introduce anybody to it but Whiney you are more in tune with those guys so im sure you know what they might dig and they might check out stuff if you do start a thread on it. If I did it then it would just be ignored!

*radio etc

this thread has inspired me to put casey kasem top 40 for 12/20/86 on the turntable. forgot about change of heart by cyndi lauper.

sam fox nipping at cyndi's heels!

oh wait other way around. sam at #36. cyndi at #37.

Maybe I'll just make a mixtape of all the important metal "singles" of 2000-2009 and post it for all the n00bs

Because no case is gonna be made from LJ posting 50 Opeth and Crypopsy YouTubes and going "FUCKKKKKKKKK"

the rap that i think would crossover isnt even traditional crit-rap, its stuff like boosie & max b & jacka (& gucci to a greater degree than he has) -- i do think critics should cover it but part of the problem is that a lot of critics, lets be honest, are relying on approval of someone -- critic peers or popular support -- before they can justify arguing in favor of artists. i mean, it took me a couple yrs of being like "mike jones > common" before i got a handle on how to express aesthetic values w/ a framework that felt true & correct. but imo there's a big populists vs. critic artist challop war that keeps going back & forth that seems to miss how aesthetic developments are actually operating, and regionally popular rap artists are less likely than ever to get critical support since they're neither top-40 popular (thus justifying attention) nor critic-popular (thus grandfathered into discourse)

so the artists i talk about are often falling thru the cracks

a lot of critics, lets be honest, are relying on approval of someone -- critic peers or popular support -- before they can justify arguing in favor of artists.

i mean, that's true of every single genre, not just rap.

isn't it hard to find people who would even want you to write about a lot of new rap music? and i'm guessing its just easier to pitch stuff that people (editors, whoever) have heard of. and i'm guessing its probably just easier for people (writers) to focus on a handful of big albums then to dive into the endless amount of underground/local stuff.

unless they have a blog devoted to underground/local stuff.

Mastodon's "Oblivion" (an album-opener) is the only metal song (unless I missed tagging something) in the last three P&Js to get more than 4 votes. And the only two 4-vote songs were Sunn O)))'s "Alice" and debatably-metal "For Ash" by Marnie Stern. Over that time Marnie Stern has collected 13 total votes for 7 songs (from 13 different voters, interestingly). Mastodon have gotten 13 for 4 songs (again, 13 different voters).

Here's the full list:

https://pub.needlebase.com/actions/visualizer/V2Visualizer.do?domain=Pazz-Jop&query=Metal+Songs

whineys metal mix would be a great 1st post to the thread, but you still got to let the rest of us post links to some great songs. Someone can just pin LJ to the floor!

Alright, give me a week

wooo

will be curious.

Metal singles I have voted for in the very recent past:

White Wizzard - "High Speed G.T.O." (2009)
Sister Sin - "One Out Of Ten" (2008)

Didn't vote for any in 2010, but would absolutely have considered "Night City" by the Sword, had it been released or promoted as a single or focus track.

i mean, that's true of every single genre, not just rap.

― when the president talks to based god (Whiney G. Weingarten), Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:24 PM (49 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

yeah i was just explaining from my perspective

isn't it hard to find people who would even want you to write about a lot of new rap music? and i'm guessing its just easier to pitch stuff that people (editors, whoever) have heard of. and i'm guessing its probably just easier for people (writers) to focus on a handful of big albums then to dive into the endless amount of underground/local stuff.

― scott seward, Thursday, January 27, 2011 2:29 PM (45 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

what they've 'heard of' is a self-perpetuating feedback loop tho

I think we need a rolling thread where we can actually list/post links to youtube for songs like that from the last 10 years to try get ilxors to check stuff out they wouldn't normally. When i see some of the crap rock the goons for example like (sorry guys) i cant help feeling that they might dig some stuff the rolling metal dudes like if they just heard it. Radip etc isn't going to introduce anybody to it but Whiney you are more in tune with those guys so im sure you know what they might dig and they might check out stuff if you do start a thread on it. If I did it then it would just be ignored!

― Algerian Goalkeeper, Thursday, January 27, 2011 3:10 PM (1 hour ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

i'll cop to having my head willfully in the sand -- i adore many forms of hard rock but imo the overwhelming majority of post-'80s "real" and/or "underground" metal can suck a dick

I think we've done "Try something new" threads a half dozen times haven't we?

One problem is that I'm just not hearing metal as having great discrete songs, the way it always used to; it strikes me as a "sound" genre nowadays, not a "song" genre. And I don't love the sounds anywhere near as much as I used to. But that may be partly because I'm listening to less and less of the stuff, and not hearing the records I might like. (A little disappointed by Christian Mistress's album, now that I've finally heard it. But Cauldron's "Miss You To Death" will definitely be in the running for my 2011 singles list, if it becomes a single in some manner.)

yeah totally -- what someone pointed out about Whiney's list of breakout songs being track 1 on their respective albums seems to illustrate that either those bands have one really immediate accessible song per album that they frontload, or consensus just gels around the first track of albums people like by default

i'll cop to having my head willfully in the sand -- i adore many forms of hard rock but imo the overwhelming majority of post-'80s "real" and/or "underground" metal can suck a dick

That's why whiney starting it off as a mixtape by him might suit you guys, he is a bit more in tune with you guys than I am. Hopefully by hearing stuff he likes (some of which I will like too) it may mean you can get into other stuff I & others like. Even extreme music can have standout songs and tunes.

yeah totally -- what someone pointed out about Whiney's list of breakout songs being track 1 on their respective albums seems to illustrate that either those bands have one really immediate accessible song per album that they frontload, or consensus just gels around the first track of albums people like by default

― williamstevenjames (some dude),

or critics only listen to that 1 song..

you think that's the case? they turn on the album, hear and like that first song, and just turn it off or put that one on repeat? or they hear about the record and get that one sample mp3, love it and then explore the rest no further? seems odd to me.

algie, you seem to have remarkably little faith in people

who knows, im not a journalist/critic/writer so I have no idea how their minds work but i would not be surprised if some (not the actual metal critics but the generalists) only listened to the 1st song. It just hits the spot they want and they dont have a need to hear anything else from the album.
the sample mp3 point is a good one. Clearly that is the metal single these days.

If you like the first song, why wouldn't you want to hear the rest? That doesn't make sense. (If you hate the first song and don't go any further, though, I completely understand. Hell, I do that all the time. Well, maybe the first two songs. Or half of each, or something.)

maybe some people just need to hear 1 song and that's all they need?

critics? rockist album-privileging critics?

heh, i get your point but a lot of rock critics hate metal.

they hate metal but still listen to that one song? this is a wild catch 21 you've dreamed up here.

but some generalist critics will like the odd song by someone they wouldn't normally. And a poppy lead off track from an album whose mp3 was posted to blogs might just satisfy that itch without them hearing a full album. I'm not saying they all do, that would be ridiculous, but I wouldn't be surprised if a few did that.

Sunn O)))'s 'Alice', as mentioned upthread, is much more likely to get me going FUCKKKKKK than Opeth or Cryptopsy, but I suspect Whiney knows this, the fiend

it's pretty goddamn amazing though. iirc The Reverend really liked it!

the rev can rock out occasionally