Was/Is Morrissey Racist?

i'd like to hear a morrissey oi record

First of the Hitler Youth to Die

Stormtroopers of the World, Unite and Take Over

how about "The world is full of crashing bores"

As the years pass, "Bengali in Platforms" makes Morrissey sound increasingly pathetic, and the title character seem increasingly cool. "Life is hard enough when you belong here" for poor dear Morrissey, maybe, but it's probably safe to assume the Bengali in question is not a shut-in who lives with his mother* and is scared of sex and gets depressed and nightclubs and whatnot ("LOL indie," etc.) -- he's got nice shoes and has immigrated and is probably pretty happy with how things are going for him.

* Actually okay he might well live with his mother, but not JUST his mother

I.e. he is a bad target for Morrissey to project his own mopiness onto

Also, these sort of "I have nothing against people from different countries, but cultures shouldn't mix" statements are exactly the same rhetoric as with most racist European politicians and parties. The idea of biologically inferior "races" has become generally passe, but often the seemingly more neutral word "culture" has simply replaced the word "race", even though the basic discourse hasn't changed that much.

Would you agree then that people who criticize "Zionists" are really just the new antisemites? They're making it a cultural thing, and not a racial issue now, I guess (those tricksters!).

Same thing with Marxist complaints against Jews/usurers/capitalists. They change the lingo, but the message remains the same! I knew all socialist rhetoric was really a vestige of Dark Ages anti-Antisemitism!

Do you see where your original dismissive attitude leads when applied elsewhere?

he's just jealous

x-post

Morrissey is an old man overromanticising the hovels of his youth and the days where "British Culture" was less fractured and there was a vague sense of "national identity".

If you pick up the NME and read the whole article, rather than take the middle chunk out of context, Morrissey makes several point clear...essentially admitting it's the shock of the relative influx that is intially startling, but that immigration itself is not a bad thing. He is bemoaning the loss of his childhood and his glory days, essentially. The Britain that The Smiths characterised and put on their sleeves, that they claimed sovereignty, no longer exists in Moz's mind.

He's scared of growing old, basically.

Although the guy could've blamed globalisation and capitalism generally to a greater degree. Which was his mistake. But I guess he's some dumb pop singer, not a politician.

You can practically see Conor McFartknocker's semen on the pages.

Apologies for the atrocious grammar of that post, I'm tired and ill and my wee tastes funny.

As the years pass, "Bengali in Platforms" makes Morrissey sound increasingly pathetic, and the title character seem increasingly cool. "Life is hard enough when you belong here" for poor dear Morrissey, maybe, but it's probably safe to assume the Bengali in question is not a shut-in who lives with his mother* and is scared of sex and gets depressed and nightclubs and whatnot ("LOL indie," etc.) -- he's got nice shoes and has immigrated and is probably pretty happy with how things are going for him.

I couldn't agree more.

The Britain that The Smiths characterised and put on their sleeves, that they claimed sovereignty, no longer exists in Moz's mind.

Since I'm not English, I have to claim some ignorance on the subject, but hasn't a big issue in Britan been its "Americanization" over the past few decades? I seem to remember the guy from Massive Attack complaining about it in the Live Forever movie. The point being, is The Smiths' England really still there? (honest question)

it was never there. national identities are figments.

but hasn't a big issue in Britan been its "Americanization" over the past few decades?

No it hasn't. Good work on switching between the terms "England" and "Britain" as well, because they're actually interchangable phrases.

Ugh. I know they aren't. I'm sure you've never made a mistake Dom.

No it hasn't. Good work on switching between the terms "England" and "Britain" as well, because they're actually interchangable phrases.

It hasn't? Americanisation/globalisation had been a big issue in the UK until it won.

Cunga, that Zionism metaphor doesn't make sense at all: most any way you define it, Zionism is itself an ideology that believes in (a) the unmixed maintenance of a certain cultural/ethnic group, and (b) the idea that such a group might "belong" in a particular place or "homeland"

Dom Passantino has literally never made a mistake, and everyone should know that.

I didn't get the zionism thing either, that was a real non-sequitur.

(says the anti-zionist Jew)

Dom Passantino has literally never made a mistake, and everyone should know that.

To be fair the English/British thing has history, and is frequently done as a casual error by people who do know better. It used to be acceptable use too, back in the day.

Dom Passantino is infallible.

Dom Popentino

A useful mix of Morrissey quotes/paraphrases from the NME interview:

"I find racism very silly..it's beyond reason"

"England is not what it was...we've lost so much"

"It's not true that the reason I wouldn't wish to live in England is the immigration explosion"

"The British identity (is/was) very attractive...I grew up into it, and I find it quaint and amusing. But (that) is a memory now"

To the question 'Isn't immigration enriching rather than diluting the British identity?'

"It does in a way, and it's nice in its way. But you have to say goodbye to the Britain that you once knew"

"The change in England is so rapid compared to the change in any other country"

"I'm not saying it's a terrible thing, i'm saying it's a reality and to many people it's shocking".

"But there's a beauty in the passing
In the passage of time..."

O RLY

The change in England is so rapid compared to the change in any other country

this is ridiculous

but other than that I have to agree with Dom, these are the words of a virulent racist who must be silenced...

Current percentage of the population of Manchester who are immigrants: 15%.

This is about more than just immigration, really. A country's capital will always attract a lot of multinational company executives, more tourists than most of the rest of the country, lots of diplomats etc etc.

I see the same thing in Oslo too, which to me is a nice thing because I have never been much of a fan of typical Norwegian culture anyway.

too much rhythm, huh

Cunga, that Zionism metaphor doesn't make sense at all: most any way you define it, Zionism is itself an ideology that believes in (a) the unmixed maintenance of a certain cultural/ethnic group, and (b) the idea that such a group might "belong" in a particular place or "homeland"

In the same way people on the Left typically target anti-immigration people for being racists (e.g. using "cultural differences" as an excuse to push over a race), so I've seen countless people on the Right dismiss critics of Zionism and Israel as closet antisemites who are using culture/ideology as an excuse to criticize a race.

"I've got nothing against brown people, I just don't think the current Mexicans coming to America are bringing the same American values that have made this country great, this country is a melting pot, not a cultural salad with different toppings, etc etc."

(The Roald Dahl line) "I've got nothing against the Jews as a people, just the damned Zionists! Aggressive Israel!, etc." (And we all know where his line of thinking eventually went)

In both cases we refuse to look at the individual arguments for whatever the policy issue is, and instead play pseudopsychologist looking for closet "isms."

The change in England is so rapid compared to the change in any other country

this is ridiculous

-- swinburningforyou, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 22:42 (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Talk us through changes in demographic structure in England over the past couple of generations, you seem to be pretty well versed in English social breakdown.

Obviously, Morrissey is ill-advised in those cases, and I don't think he is factually right either. I've been to both London and Berlin recently, and Berlin is probably even more culturally shaped by Turkish and Croatian immigrants than London is by Pakistani and Indian ones. But there is still a lot of English culture left in London, like there is German culture left in Berlin (and Norwegian culture left in Oslo). And it will always stay that way.

Surely, you may not get that impression in Brixton or on Edgware Road, but there is a lot more to London than that.

(The Roald Dahl line) "I've got nothing against the Jews as a people, just the damned Zionists! Aggressive Israel!, etc." (And we all know where his line of thinking eventually went)

"Pederasts with candy factories! Gigantic produce! BABY-EATING BITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

immigration and zionism are not interchangeable concepts wtf

But, if he isn't speaking about immigration, isn't it possible that it is Americanization Morrissey is speaking out against?
In which case, the entire hip-hop-thing may also be seen as sort of an Americanization, mind you.

Am I the only one who suspects Geir accidentally left himself logged in on a public computer?

xpost NEVER MIND

hahahahahahahahahaha

And it will always stay that way.

history says otherwise

xpost to Dom

I'm not saying things haven't changed in England, but I just doubt that the change is as radical as it has been in places like Singapore or China, where things seem to be exploding.

And you don't have to be a dick just because you were wrong.

Americanisation/globalisation had been a big issue in the UK until it won.

Americanisation is a big issue everywhere. In fact, Americanisation is probably one of the two main reasons why Al Qaida exists (the other one being Israel).

Geir on a roll

Ok, this is one of those two lots of people shouting at each other threads I guess. They're dull. Enjoy yourselves.

Morrissey is an old man overromanticising the hovels of his youth and the days where "British Culture" was less fractured and there was a vague sense of "national identity".

morrissey was in his youth in the 60s and 70s, i think -- so before all the immigration.

no, sorry, i mean 'during and after' all the immigration.

Enjoy yourselves.

Thanks, don't mind if we do!

Morrissey is an old man overromanticising the hovels of his youth and the days where "British Culture" was less fractured and there was a vague sense of "national identity".

if that knightsbridge comment is anything to go by, he probably doesnt like living here anymore is cos he thinks all the non-white faces in england are ruining ye olde britishness. fair enough, i see nothing wrong with people wanting to preserve traditional britishness, but to him, anyone from somewhere else living here is an immediate threat to that which is the same bollocks argument all the right wingers use. so he can fuck right off. im quite a big morrisey/smiths fan and ive always wondered about the ambiguous tone of bengali in platforms - hes clever nott o come out and say what he means blatantly but it is basically the nice sympathetic face of your casual nationalism.

based on the video clips he plays before his live shows I'm pretty sure Morrissey believes that culture should have remained stagnant after 1965 (except for the New York Dolls)

Morrissey is an old man overromanticising the hovels of his youth and the days where "British Culture" was less fractured and there was a vague sense of "national identity".

well, yeah, and the same goes for most of the bands the nme likes (essentially), but there's a bit of a difference between objecting to what happened in pop music and objecting to, like, immigration -- which predated morrissey's birth (to immigrant parents) anyway.

crosspost

he's not objecting to immigration per se, he's objecting to the perceived specific consequences of immigration in England (or so i suspect).

morrissey was in his youth in the 60s and 70s, i think -- so before all the immigration.

no, sorry, i mean 'during and after' all the immigration.

You think immigration is responsible for the fracturing of the 'British national identity'? I think it's way down the list.