should i give the grateful dead a chance?

@sleever: Heh, pretty close.

Television is more Dead-like in concert where the guitar solos can go on for 7 minutes.

I really hate the kind of insult-the-band via strawmanning-the-fan that the Dead, in particular, seem to attract. Apart from being lazy and dishonest, it often makes no sense outside of the country or time period where the stereotype originated.

i dunno, television, even at their noodliest, seems so much more tightly wound than the dead. if we're going to compare them to any west coat 60s act, i'd say quicksilver messenger service.

"Apart from being lazy and dishonest, it often makes no sense outside of the country or time period where the stereotype originated."

aren't there deadheads in every country and every time zone? and the time period is seemingly endless. i also think that people bring up the fans so much because they are a very real part of the band experience. the dead always stressed that deadheads were an integral part of their show. and when people pick on the dead's fans it's often because the fans love things about the dead that detractors kinda hate. the long seemingly formless slow-motion jams, etc. and this is partially drug-related too.

but yeah obviously you can just listen to the music and judge it on its own merits and never bring up or think of deadheads. its just that deadheads actually had some ability to change the music itself using their third eye pyramid mind power at live shows. and the dead reacted to their audience in weird ways. and they were perverse with their audience. they played them like a violin.

um, but if you just stick to the studio stuff then that's fine. that's mostly what i listen to when i listen. unlike the dead, i like the studio stuff. never had a problem with the sound or whatever. i like that they actually had to get straight takes of songs that they had played a zillion times. i never understood why they just didn't record live one-take tracks in the studio though. if they thought the studio rigamarole was so stifling or not conducive to their collective "thing".

the dead always stressed that deadheads were an integral part of their show.

Although to be fair to the band, they liked their fans a lot less as time went on.

i dunno, television, even at their noodliest, seems so much more tightly wound than the dead. if we're going to compare them to any west coat 60s act, i'd say quicksilver messenger service.

― tylerw, Friday, April 22, 2011 9:40 AM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^this

also the dead never really seem to be aggressive even at their jammiest it's gentle

i never understood why they just didn't record live one-take tracks in the studio though. if they thought the studio rigamarole was so stifling or not conducive to their collective "thing".

― scott seward, Friday, April 22, 2011 10:58 AM (13 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

they finally had this idea for in the dark, only took em 12 albums to get there. i too listen to the studio stuff mostly.

still listening to this old renaissance fair show quite a bit.

i like it. some of the jams are pretty magical.

you know what though? is bob weir like kind of annoying in general?

that's part of his charm

you may be on to something

Speaking as someone who backed into liking some Dead via JGB, yes I'm of the opinion that Weir is mostly annoying. Really do not care for his voice.

The yellow dog story!

i dunno, television, even at their noodliest, seems so much more tightly wound than the dead. if we're going to compare them to any west coat 60s act, i'd say quicksilver messenger service.

― tylerw, Friday, April 22, 2011 9:40 AM (28 minutes ago) Bookmark Suggest Ban Permalink

^^this

^^^

There's a loose element of psych-rock to Television, and of course some jazz, but any comparison ends there, to my ears. Apples to oranges, but Television is a great example of an intrinsically indulgent band that captures a kind of sharp edge and standing on the edge drama that I wish the Dead captured (or at least conveyed to me) more regularly. Did the Dead ever collaborate with any free jazz sorts? Their later year guests always seemed to be Branford Marsalis or Bruce Hornsby, which to my sums up my (personal) problems right there.

I'm not really sure what you mean by edge---"The Other One" suites through the early 70s can be pretty fraught.

garcia played on ornette coleman's virgin beauty record xp

Like, the Dead is too ... smooth to my ears? Not enough discord, not enough dissonance? The improv doesn't bite. But again, that could be limited exposure on my part. Then again, given the Dead, my exposure will always be limited, considering their thorough/excessive documentation.

You guys need to check out Dicks Picks Volume 16 for some freaky feedback jams. Sonic Youth comparisons pretty apt imo.

And this is definitely my favorite Weir GD song
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HfQ1xGKihOA

http://www.archive.org/details/gd93-02-23.sbd.hall.1611.sbeok.shnf
http://www.archive.org/details/gd1993-12-09.schoeps.wklitz.94325.flac16

re: Ornette!

Hey, Upper Mississippi Sh@kedown, Bob Weir did drive me away from the Dead in his later years, but early on he was a much less annoying part of the band. I truly believe that, for a while at least, he was one of the greatest (or at least most unique) rhythm guitarists of all time. He does some super-cool stuff, and early on he really focused on the music and less on being a front-man. He has his moments here and there as a singer, but I fing that these days I rarely listen to a single Weir song.

In this vein, listen to some 60's Dead to hear a much nervier, more "garage" version of the band. It is my favorite era of theirs, but really I am no authority or completist at all, I just like some but not all Dead, and the 60s/early 70s stuff has the most staying power with me (they were a little more direct and raw then, and when they did go "out" it was still a pretty fresh thing to do and seems consistently more vital to me then some of the later period Dead does).

Good place to start is the Filmore East shows form around that time, but again I can't recommend a specific show/set of dates, perhaps someone else on the thread can.

"Death Don't Have No Mercy" from Live/Dead has enormous heft imo.

Yeah, love Live/Dead, and especially that song.

i'm surprised that more people don't criticize jerry's electric guitar sound/tone when they think of reasons why they don't like the dead. especially live. or maybe i missed the posts on here where people had a problem with it. its certainly perfect for acid trips, but sometimes even i'm not in the mood for it. especially live. not so much on the studio records. i'm usually fine with it on those. he sure liked that sound he got. i really like when he sounds different. or when he's playing other instruments! or acoustic. where are the high-pitched weedle-deedle haters?

(and speaking of quicksilver, i'm a bigger cipollina fan when it comes to west coast guitar godz)

Jerry's tone is a big part of why I have a hard time with post 72 Dead anymore.

yeah i guess it's more his singing that drives me nuts. he seems like he's trying to be all rock n' roll boogie and he sucks at it and they don't really hit hard enuff to be choogling to me (IMO at least)

keep in mind i've heard anthem of the sun like three times, this bootleg, and skeletons in the closet. so i could be all sorts of wrong.

listening to the bootleg, i'm pretty consistently blown away by Phil Lesh. i play bass and i'm frankly kind of in awe of him, really amazing player, he seems like the best technical musician in the band by a mile.

I love Jerry's tone for the most part (there are a lot of different tones over the years, actually, depending on the guitar he was using and the venue they played. Some are really slippery and thin, others are more distorted and gnarly.) Bigger problem for me was self-editing; sometimes I think he had played everything he needed to in a song and still went on for another 10 or 20 minutes. But that's part of the Dead ethos, and hard to criticize as such.

One of the better criticism of Garcia's tone I've seen (staff writer Paul Chaplin was an admitted Deadhead):

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RhcEXk_pJ9c

"they did sugaree into dark star into sugaree into dark star into sugaree"

"And then the MOON came out...and it was like Jerry willed it!"

Pretty much exactly my complaint above: too smooth, too much envelope filter.

HAHAHAHAHAHA!! Thanks for that, Ned!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDl3bdE3YQA

Jerry solo at ... 2:10?

Hah, yeah. I also hate that effect. Lots of bad "technology" aimed at guitarists, some of whom bit hard. Garcia and Fripp are two guys I really like at times but I cannot hang with midi or making your guitar sound like a flute.

Fripp has a bad habit lately of making his guitar sound like a marimba. But it's like the saying goes: why would a first rate guitarist want to sound like a third rate saxophonist?

Other One is amazing and yes can be quite aggressive, there is tons o dead stuff that does not fir the gentle, noodly jamming depiction

and have defended bobby on another dead thread years ago, live his voice and he has some of my favorite dead songs too - estimated prophet (which burning spear did a great version of on deadicated), looks like rain and the cowboy songs were great fun

@ Josh in Chicago, with you on teh Bruce Hornsby thing but having seen Branford with the Dead a cple times, the first show he ever played with 'em at Nassau Coliseum and again for New Years Eve show it was amzing both times, switching from adapting to dead styles on estimated and eyes to on lovelight going into old soul style sax

If television or the meat puppets are the punk dead, who is the metal dead? I vote kyuss

Witch

Clutch

Clutch is the ZZ Top of metal

Dream Theater

the correct answer is Enslaved, though they don't tour a whole lot, but their vibe is similarly cruise-control-awesome-at-what-we-do with bouts of wait-fuck-best-music-ever

def. check out Enslaved, but I was gonna say Down maybe...Kyuss is a good answer too.

Lol EZ listening to 'Binge and Purge' right now. Metal's 'La Grange'.

I'm not a huge black metal guy, but enslaved has some lengthy jams that are seriously righteous. That's a good call.

Shout out to Skull and Roses, though like Europe '72 I think there is some studio touch up. Which is cool.

skull and roses is the one where they got some other guy to play organ in the studio over pigpen's parts, right?

Not sure, but its pretty polished for a live alb. "Bertha" is a great fucking song. As is "Wharf Rat". Don't think those were on any studio record. I like how the Dead did that

Big Railroad Blues