ODD FUTURE WOLF GANG KILL THEM ALL

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/You_and_I_%28film%29

this February in Russia, apparently!

talking about the aesthetics of this means you are able to listen to it with a degree of dispassion, which is not always going to be possible when you're listening to something that literally invokes a feeling of dread/anger/fear in you.

prioritizing reactions of dread/anger/fear over dispassionate analysis is a slippery slope. I can (and have) been exposed to plenty of anti-semitic nonsense in my time, for example, and in pretty much every case I think the instances when I was able to respond with cogent analysis were preferable to the instances when I was overcome with revulsion/fear/rage/whatever.

xp

idk I've seen you mention his name a lot recently, just seems like a reach of a criticism to me xxp to lex

hey David Geffen took some heat when Axl was running off his mouth

ridicule/laughter is also a good way to react in my experience - comedy robs a lot of things of their power

xp

i think i've mentioned his name like twice this year! though the xl obeisance is something i've been gradually noticing of late. idk non-britishers prob don't get exposed to it i guess

I have never heard of XL's "rep" as an ethical label until you brought it up in this thread tbh

XP Ivan Shapovalov was trained as a child psychologist but i'm not sure he ever practiced.

Lena's got some solo stuff coming up.

Tapes n' Tapes' The Loon was the most ethical album I'd have ever heard in my life

prioritizing reactions of dread/anger/fear over dispassionate analysis is a slippery slope.

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/slipslop.html

I seriously cannot believe your response to a clear explanation about why it's bullshit for a person in the position of privilege to dictate/suggest/advise the person not in privilege how they might better react is "slippery" fuckin "slope"

god i'm gonna have to load this whole thread aren't i?

show all messages (5735 of them)

I don't think XL have ever really stood out, they're just kind of there. Even in their high moments: Dizzee's first one, the odd Basement Jaxx track... ummm Prodigy and another one... They're just the ultimate wall paper label. They're pretty much a Skint records that caught on to indie pop accidently. most of their catalouge is Badly Drawn Boy lol

xp to shakey -- serious question, has your experience with expressions of anti-semitism A) reminded you of a time when you or others were physically violated as a direct result of anti-semitism, B) been excused by those around you as not a big deal, contributing to an overall feeling that culture doesn't really take your safety seriously?

i get that you're coming from a position of "i want to react in the way that best addresses the problem i have." but guess what, it's not a moral imperative to make sure you react "appropriately" to things that are hurtful/threatening to you! for you to take your own ability to remain dispassionate in the face of violent shit and extrapolate it out to "everyone else also should act this way" is not respectful/is silencing of the people who can't.

getting back on track though, I'm kind of bummed this album didn't showcase OFWGKTA that well. Tyler was never the strongest link on his own so it was kinda expected but I thought he'd step up a bit morefor a full album. Bring on Earl and MellowHype I say those guys are ace.

man, looking at the XL roster now compared to what it used to be... I'm old

has your experience with expressions of anti-semitism A) reminded you of a time when you or others were physically violated as a direct result of anti-semitism Yes

B) been excused by those around you as not a big deal Yes. By both Jews and non-Jews, incidentally.

contributing to an overall feeling that culture doesn't really take your safety seriously? I've always felt that part of being Jewish is to be threatened, for better or worse. People hate us, it's pretty deeply ingrained in a lot of cultures. This doesn't mean that my intermittent feelings of paranoia or rage are all that healthy or helpful or even justified.

xp

but guess what, it's not a moral imperative to make sure you react "appropriately" to things that are hurtful/threatening to you

really I just disagree with this, I think

in some ways those are the MOST important times to act appropriately

in some ways those are the MOST important times to act appropriately

and that's fine for you to say for yourself. when you start telling marginalized persons in whose numbers you yourself are not included how to respond, that's when you cross over into being offensively full of shit. which I say w/o rancor for real dude but a straight white man telling a queer woman that she's processing her rage in an unhelpful way is 100% fuckin' bullshit and you know this.

xp okay, so say we've got analogous situations. someone expresses anti-semitism in a song, and it reminds of you of a violent incident personal to you/people in your life. it upsets you, but instead of writing an op-ed piece condemning the message like Sara Q did, you just focus on the aesthetics/don't be a scold about it, in the hopes that being low-key and moderate and reasonable will be a better argument against it.

first, that's cool that you can do that, and it undoubtedly can be a positive thing in the overall discourse. but second, why is this the only response that has legitimacy in your mind? take sady doyle's recent piece on odd future. she is fucking furious about odd future. tyler isn't going to read that article and say "wow, i see the error of my ways." but women like me are going to read that article, and sady's anger might make some of us go "FUCKING FINALLY someone is angry about this super-infuriating thing!" it makes me feel validated and energized and supported, which gives me the ability to come here and have this argument, instead of just assuming everyone will take me for a lol feminist killjoy and not post at all. while i bet sady would be happy if the overall mainstream culture really changed as a result of that post, and sara q would be too, a lot of these posts function as calls to rally allies, as much as they are call-outs to larger culture.

/in some ways those are the MOST important times to act appropriately/

and that's fine for you to say for yourself. when you start telling marginalized persons in whose numbers you yourself are not included how to respond, that's when you cross over into being offensively full of shit. which I say w/o rancor for real dude but a straight white man telling a queer woman that she's processing her rage in an unhelpful way is 100% fuckin' bullshit and you know this.

^^^amazed that this even needs to e articulated, tbh, since it is so patently obvious.

I've always felt that part of being Jewish is to be threatened, for better or worse. People hate us, it's pretty deeply ingrained in a lot of cultures. This doesn't mean that my intermittent feelings of paranoia or rage are all that healthy or helpful or even justified.

can you also see that there is a sense of nihilism here that might not be shared by everyone in the discourse? "it's pretty deeply ingrained in a lot of cultures" can make one person say "so what can you do?", while another might say "that shit's not okay, get out the bullhorns." why is one of those responses the "appropriate" one?

God I love Sady Doyle.

reddening OTM, and cut

can you also see that there is a sense of nihilism here that might not be shared by everyone in the discourse? "it's pretty deeply ingrained in a lot of cultures" can make one person say "so what can you do?", while another might say "that shit's not okay, get out the bullhorns." why is one of those responses the "appropriate" one?

― tribute power point presentation (reddening), Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:21 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark

if its right for shakey, its ~right for everyone~

That Sady Doyle post is great.

yeah the Sady post seems much better to me than the Tegan & Sara/GLAAD ones

but I guess I should keep my opinion to myself

can make one person say "so what can you do?", while another might say "that shit's not okay, get out the bullhorns." why is one of those responses the "appropriate" one?

tactics tactics tactics. what's the desirable end result and what is most likely to achieve it. I'm a pragmatic sort.

you are still discounting the honest reaction of the people who are actually being marginalized. the only tactic that matters is raising your voice. if you were not speaking, on this subject, from a position of absolute, permanently unthreatened privilege, you would get this.

Tyler bounded into the crowd and everyone surged towards him, camera phones aloft. He returned to the stage as Syd killed the track, and announced that near the bar, he’d “bumped into a bitch and she got mad.”

“Bitch is a stripper!” he yelled, and lots of people cheered and laughed at the prospect of the bitch being a stripper. “Why come to an Odd Future show if you gon’ get mad?” he asked. “Pussy musta got like five licks. Bitch is a fuckin’ stripper, yo. You can go home if you don’t like it.”

AND!

Just after two in the morning, a blonde girl surfed her way onstage and kissed Tyler, who announced, “I might legit have herpes.” The crowd laughed and started a “show your titties” chant, and she refused, looking bashful. “Then get the fuck off the stage!” Tyler yelled.

AND! From the NEW FUCKING YORKER!

A young female fan took the stage, and the crowd called for her to get naked, until she protested that she had a boyfriend, at which point the crowd chanted, “Slut! Slut! Slut!”

also - damn, c'mon no one's defending this behavior (are they? I hope not). First I've seen of these anecdotes.

what's the desirable end result and what is most likely to achieve it. I'm a pragmatic sort.

dude. if you think that something is unacceptable and want other people to know this, then raising a public objection = A-1 pragmatism. she got her point out to the extent that it now frames the debate in conversations like this. i imagine that's a positive result from her standpoint, though (of course) the end result of all actions is basically unknowable in advance.

also - damn, c'mon no one's defending this behavior (are they? I hope not). First I've seen of these anecdotes.

perhaps now you understand why everyone thinks you are being insane

"prioritizing reactions of dread/anger/fear over dispassionate analysis is a slippery slope"

A slippery slope to what, exactly?

yeah that particular sentiment seems a little concern-trolly

a full-on lesbian riot, I guess?

also - damn, c'mon no one's defending this behavior (are they? I hope not). First I've seen of these anecdotes.

yes, they are. it's being called "trolling." if I scroll up, I bet I can find you yourself doing said defending.

http://www.sheimagazine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/bikini-kill.jpg

LOOKOUT!

yes, they are. it's being called "trolling." if I scroll up, I bet I can find you yourself doing said defending.

not sure how I could defend incidents I wasn't aware of but go ahead

i saw tribe 8 in the entry once, bass player had a 5 string, p disappointing

direct mentions of trolling wrt to Odd Future are from lex(in the context of his Guardian piece), forks and aero

not gonna check for indirect invocations because my black ass needs to go home

ur welcome

all that is necessary for five string basses to triumph is for good men to do nothing

(before I go, I should mention that lex and aero cast it as negative in effect and forks is talking solely about Goblin and uses the term as value neutral)

Shakey, did you miss the part where Tyler told Sara Quinn she needed some hard dick over his twitter and you didn't give a shit? same deal man

DJP YOU CAN'T LEAVE WORK WE HAVE TO STAY HERE AND TALK ABOUT TYLER THE CREATOR.

uh yes I did miss that part and no I didn't say "I don't give a shit"

jeez

you may have missed the part where I said "sum total of articles/blog posts I have read about OF = 2" (now it's 3 if we count the Sady Doyle piece)

i'll cop to endorsing OF in general (not "defending", cuz it's only recently that the debate's started to slide this way).

i tried hard to like and to mentally excuse the tyler album cuz i'd cast myself as a fan and very much wanted it to be okay and for me to be okay with it. my initial response to "bitch suck dick", however, was a kind of gutshot despair, like i'd been conned into something horrible. that passed, i forced a kind of desensitization on myself, but in the long run, i have no idea where i stand. it's not like goblin is any more offensive than the earl record. and yeah, those live show stories are sickening.

I haven't even listen to Goblin and don't plan to, fwiw