ODD FUTURE WOLF GANG KILL THEM ALL

man, looking at the XL roster now compared to what it used to be... I'm old

has your experience with expressions of anti-semitism A) reminded you of a time when you or others were physically violated as a direct result of anti-semitism Yes

B) been excused by those around you as not a big deal Yes. By both Jews and non-Jews, incidentally.

contributing to an overall feeling that culture doesn't really take your safety seriously? I've always felt that part of being Jewish is to be threatened, for better or worse. People hate us, it's pretty deeply ingrained in a lot of cultures. This doesn't mean that my intermittent feelings of paranoia or rage are all that healthy or helpful or even justified.

xp

but guess what, it's not a moral imperative to make sure you react "appropriately" to things that are hurtful/threatening to you

really I just disagree with this, I think

in some ways those are the MOST important times to act appropriately

in some ways those are the MOST important times to act appropriately

and that's fine for you to say for yourself. when you start telling marginalized persons in whose numbers you yourself are not included how to respond, that's when you cross over into being offensively full of shit. which I say w/o rancor for real dude but a straight white man telling a queer woman that she's processing her rage in an unhelpful way is 100% fuckin' bullshit and you know this.

xp okay, so say we've got analogous situations. someone expresses anti-semitism in a song, and it reminds of you of a violent incident personal to you/people in your life. it upsets you, but instead of writing an op-ed piece condemning the message like Sara Q did, you just focus on the aesthetics/don't be a scold about it, in the hopes that being low-key and moderate and reasonable will be a better argument against it.

first, that's cool that you can do that, and it undoubtedly can be a positive thing in the overall discourse. but second, why is this the only response that has legitimacy in your mind? take sady doyle's recent piece on odd future. she is fucking furious about odd future. tyler isn't going to read that article and say "wow, i see the error of my ways." but women like me are going to read that article, and sady's anger might make some of us go "FUCKING FINALLY someone is angry about this super-infuriating thing!" it makes me feel validated and energized and supported, which gives me the ability to come here and have this argument, instead of just assuming everyone will take me for a lol feminist killjoy and not post at all. while i bet sady would be happy if the overall mainstream culture really changed as a result of that post, and sara q would be too, a lot of these posts function as calls to rally allies, as much as they are call-outs to larger culture.

/in some ways those are the MOST important times to act appropriately/

and that's fine for you to say for yourself. when you start telling marginalized persons in whose numbers you yourself are not included how to respond, that's when you cross over into being offensively full of shit. which I say w/o rancor for real dude but a straight white man telling a queer woman that she's processing her rage in an unhelpful way is 100% fuckin' bullshit and you know this.

^^^amazed that this even needs to e articulated, tbh, since it is so patently obvious.

I've always felt that part of being Jewish is to be threatened, for better or worse. People hate us, it's pretty deeply ingrained in a lot of cultures. This doesn't mean that my intermittent feelings of paranoia or rage are all that healthy or helpful or even justified.

can you also see that there is a sense of nihilism here that might not be shared by everyone in the discourse? "it's pretty deeply ingrained in a lot of cultures" can make one person say "so what can you do?", while another might say "that shit's not okay, get out the bullhorns." why is one of those responses the "appropriate" one?

God I love Sady Doyle.

reddening OTM, and cut

can you also see that there is a sense of nihilism here that might not be shared by everyone in the discourse? "it's pretty deeply ingrained in a lot of cultures" can make one person say "so what can you do?", while another might say "that shit's not okay, get out the bullhorns." why is one of those responses the "appropriate" one?

― tribute power point presentation (reddening), Thursday, May 19, 2011 6:21 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark

if its right for shakey, its ~right for everyone~

That Sady Doyle post is great.

yeah the Sady post seems much better to me than the Tegan & Sara/GLAAD ones

but I guess I should keep my opinion to myself

can make one person say "so what can you do?", while another might say "that shit's not okay, get out the bullhorns." why is one of those responses the "appropriate" one?

tactics tactics tactics. what's the desirable end result and what is most likely to achieve it. I'm a pragmatic sort.

you are still discounting the honest reaction of the people who are actually being marginalized. the only tactic that matters is raising your voice. if you were not speaking, on this subject, from a position of absolute, permanently unthreatened privilege, you would get this.

Tyler bounded into the crowd and everyone surged towards him, camera phones aloft. He returned to the stage as Syd killed the track, and announced that near the bar, he’d “bumped into a bitch and she got mad.”

“Bitch is a stripper!” he yelled, and lots of people cheered and laughed at the prospect of the bitch being a stripper. “Why come to an Odd Future show if you gon’ get mad?” he asked. “Pussy musta got like five licks. Bitch is a fuckin’ stripper, yo. You can go home if you don’t like it.”

AND!

Just after two in the morning, a blonde girl surfed her way onstage and kissed Tyler, who announced, “I might legit have herpes.” The crowd laughed and started a “show your titties” chant, and she refused, looking bashful. “Then get the fuck off the stage!” Tyler yelled.

AND! From the NEW FUCKING YORKER!

A young female fan took the stage, and the crowd called for her to get naked, until she protested that she had a boyfriend, at which point the crowd chanted, “Slut! Slut! Slut!”

also - damn, c'mon no one's defending this behavior (are they? I hope not). First I've seen of these anecdotes.

what's the desirable end result and what is most likely to achieve it. I'm a pragmatic sort.

dude. if you think that something is unacceptable and want other people to know this, then raising a public objection = A-1 pragmatism. she got her point out to the extent that it now frames the debate in conversations like this. i imagine that's a positive result from her standpoint, though (of course) the end result of all actions is basically unknowable in advance.

also - damn, c'mon no one's defending this behavior (are they? I hope not). First I've seen of these anecdotes.

perhaps now you understand why everyone thinks you are being insane

"prioritizing reactions of dread/anger/fear over dispassionate analysis is a slippery slope"

A slippery slope to what, exactly?

yeah that particular sentiment seems a little concern-trolly

a full-on lesbian riot, I guess?

also - damn, c'mon no one's defending this behavior (are they? I hope not). First I've seen of these anecdotes.

yes, they are. it's being called "trolling." if I scroll up, I bet I can find you yourself doing said defending.

http://www.sheimagazine.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2009/11/bikini-kill.jpg

LOOKOUT!

yes, they are. it's being called "trolling." if I scroll up, I bet I can find you yourself doing said defending.

not sure how I could defend incidents I wasn't aware of but go ahead

i saw tribe 8 in the entry once, bass player had a 5 string, p disappointing

direct mentions of trolling wrt to Odd Future are from lex(in the context of his Guardian piece), forks and aero

not gonna check for indirect invocations because my black ass needs to go home

ur welcome

all that is necessary for five string basses to triumph is for good men to do nothing

(before I go, I should mention that lex and aero cast it as negative in effect and forks is talking solely about Goblin and uses the term as value neutral)

Shakey, did you miss the part where Tyler told Sara Quinn she needed some hard dick over his twitter and you didn't give a shit? same deal man

DJP YOU CAN'T LEAVE WORK WE HAVE TO STAY HERE AND TALK ABOUT TYLER THE CREATOR.

uh yes I did miss that part and no I didn't say "I don't give a shit"

jeez

you may have missed the part where I said "sum total of articles/blog posts I have read about OF = 2" (now it's 3 if we count the Sady Doyle piece)

i'll cop to endorsing OF in general (not "defending", cuz it's only recently that the debate's started to slide this way).

i tried hard to like and to mentally excuse the tyler album cuz i'd cast myself as a fan and very much wanted it to be okay and for me to be okay with it. my initial response to "bitch suck dick", however, was a kind of gutshot despair, like i'd been conned into something horrible. that passed, i forced a kind of desensitization on myself, but in the long run, i have no idea where i stand. it's not like goblin is any more offensive than the earl record. and yeah, those live show stories are sickening.

I haven't even listen to Goblin and don't plan to, fwiw

listened

Kinda where I'm at too tbh xp to contender

also got bored with goblin like two tracks in, haven't revisited it yet

i just want to say something re: the argument that keeps cropping up (not here but everywhere else), that old people just don't get the music that young people like.

c'mon, i get it. i get that teenage boys are homophobic and misogynistic and gross. i know all about that! i don't think that shit should be humoured, though.

wait are you old now

yes :(

or like...middle-aged anyway

OLD

and yeah, those live show stories are sickening.

dammit this is the part where I want to scream. because yes: art can be complex, and writers can assume all manner of masks to express themselves. but maybe, just maybe, when a lot of people whose intelligence you can kinda verify say "this sounds more like actual-rape-sympathy than use of a rape trope toward some other aesthetic end," people might go "hmm why are people responding like this" instead of looking first-and-foremost for the "here's why this is ok" out? because it really feels to me like in the discourse around this subject there's more people looking immediately for the "no way the guy with all the rape talk might actually be a creepy ass misogynist" route than the "hmm, rape's kinda gross and this guy's way way into it, what's up w/this dude" response, which imo is the healthier, saner response. not that you can't say "ok I get that this is cathartic" or w/e, tbh the geto boys have a track called "dirty bitch" that's about murdering bushwick's ex-wife and I consider it a pretty fucking brilliant expression of pain and rage. but as I think I said early on, I'm a guy who listens to fucking goregrind. I'm fully capable of processing shocking art. and I think I have a finely enough tuned ear to not be just engaging some grandpa urge when I hear something that feels like it's not coming from an interest-in-exploring-tropes place but a reject-and-resist-this-because-this-is-genuinely-sympathetic-to-rape place.

there was a whole subtext to Eminem that you were supposed to care about his trials with his mom, his wife, his kid, that he had FEELINGS and he was MESSED UP and O THA TRAGEDY btw here's some rape jokes and fags are lame

the juxtaposition was actively irritating to me

― ice cr?m's world of female people (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, February 25, 2011 10:14 PM (2 months ago) Bookmark

^^^all this stuff about Tyler being the emo one makes me think eh I probably won't like Goblin anyway

xp

altho in general I agree with deej that they are not really all that awesome/remarkable - the music's pretty hit or miss. there's some undeniably good rapping and the occasional great hook/beat but seems like there's a lot of crap to wade through. quantity over quality in the internet age, no surprise...

― american thinker (Shakey Mo Collier), Friday, May 13, 2011 10:35 PM (6 days ago) Bookmark

also my opinion hasn't changed since last Friday fwiw lol

but maybe, just maybe, when a lot of people whose intelligence you can kinda verify say "this sounds more like actual-rape-sympathy than use of a rape trope toward some other aesthetic end," people might go "hmm why are people responding like this" instead of looking first-and-foremost for the "here's why this is ok" out?

that's maybe a little soapboxy. the tone and substance of debate in this thread has changed a lot over the last couple weeks.

i did try to square myself with goblin's gross teen misogyny vibes because i genuinely liked rolling papers, earl and bastard way back when, late last summer when i was first hearing this shit. at the time, i gently tried to spark some conversation about "epar" and the extreme degree of its awfulness, but not many wanted to pick up on it, and i didn't want to be all serious guy (something for which i often catch flak), so i let it drop. and, honestly, i did and still do think it's at least half brilliant - and completely reprehensible at the same time.

but as I think I said early on, I'm a guy who listens to fucking goregrind. I'm fully capable of processing shocking art. and I think I have a finely enough tuned ear to not be just engaging some grandpa urge when I hear something that feels like it's not coming from an interest-in-exploring-tropes place but a reject-and-resist-this-because-this-is-genuinely-sympathetic-to-rape place.

― w of in the attic (underrated aerosmith bootlegs I have owned), Thursday, May 19, 2011 7:21 PM (12 minutes ago) Bookmark

its definitely not genuinely sympathetic to rape but it's also not interested in exploring tropes

isn't OF almost a total study in 'tropes'

^ would say so

I wonder what Sady Doyle thinks about "Dirty Bitch"