Was/Is Morrissey Racist?

Dom Passantino has literally never made a mistake, and everyone should know that.

To be fair the English/British thing has history, and is frequently done as a casual error by people who do know better. It used to be acceptable use too, back in the day.

Dom Passantino is infallible.

Dom Popentino

A useful mix of Morrissey quotes/paraphrases from the NME interview:

"I find racism very silly..it's beyond reason"

"England is not what it was...we've lost so much"

"It's not true that the reason I wouldn't wish to live in England is the immigration explosion"

"The British identity (is/was) very attractive...I grew up into it, and I find it quaint and amusing. But (that) is a memory now"

To the question 'Isn't immigration enriching rather than diluting the British identity?'

"It does in a way, and it's nice in its way. But you have to say goodbye to the Britain that you once knew"

"The change in England is so rapid compared to the change in any other country"

"I'm not saying it's a terrible thing, i'm saying it's a reality and to many people it's shocking".

"But there's a beauty in the passing
In the passage of time..."

O RLY

The change in England is so rapid compared to the change in any other country

this is ridiculous

but other than that I have to agree with Dom, these are the words of a virulent racist who must be silenced...

Current percentage of the population of Manchester who are immigrants: 15%.

This is about more than just immigration, really. A country's capital will always attract a lot of multinational company executives, more tourists than most of the rest of the country, lots of diplomats etc etc.

I see the same thing in Oslo too, which to me is a nice thing because I have never been much of a fan of typical Norwegian culture anyway.

too much rhythm, huh

Cunga, that Zionism metaphor doesn't make sense at all: most any way you define it, Zionism is itself an ideology that believes in (a) the unmixed maintenance of a certain cultural/ethnic group, and (b) the idea that such a group might "belong" in a particular place or "homeland"

In the same way people on the Left typically target anti-immigration people for being racists (e.g. using "cultural differences" as an excuse to push over a race), so I've seen countless people on the Right dismiss critics of Zionism and Israel as closet antisemites who are using culture/ideology as an excuse to criticize a race.

"I've got nothing against brown people, I just don't think the current Mexicans coming to America are bringing the same American values that have made this country great, this country is a melting pot, not a cultural salad with different toppings, etc etc."

(The Roald Dahl line) "I've got nothing against the Jews as a people, just the damned Zionists! Aggressive Israel!, etc." (And we all know where his line of thinking eventually went)

In both cases we refuse to look at the individual arguments for whatever the policy issue is, and instead play pseudopsychologist looking for closet "isms."

The change in England is so rapid compared to the change in any other country

this is ridiculous

-- swinburningforyou, Wednesday, 28 November 2007 22:42 (7 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

Talk us through changes in demographic structure in England over the past couple of generations, you seem to be pretty well versed in English social breakdown.

Obviously, Morrissey is ill-advised in those cases, and I don't think he is factually right either. I've been to both London and Berlin recently, and Berlin is probably even more culturally shaped by Turkish and Croatian immigrants than London is by Pakistani and Indian ones. But there is still a lot of English culture left in London, like there is German culture left in Berlin (and Norwegian culture left in Oslo). And it will always stay that way.

Surely, you may not get that impression in Brixton or on Edgware Road, but there is a lot more to London than that.

(The Roald Dahl line) "I've got nothing against the Jews as a people, just the damned Zionists! Aggressive Israel!, etc." (And we all know where his line of thinking eventually went)

"Pederasts with candy factories! Gigantic produce! BABY-EATING BITCHES!!!!!!!!!!!!!"

immigration and zionism are not interchangeable concepts wtf

But, if he isn't speaking about immigration, isn't it possible that it is Americanization Morrissey is speaking out against?
In which case, the entire hip-hop-thing may also be seen as sort of an Americanization, mind you.

Am I the only one who suspects Geir accidentally left himself logged in on a public computer?

xpost NEVER MIND

hahahahahahahahahaha

And it will always stay that way.

history says otherwise

xpost to Dom

I'm not saying things haven't changed in England, but I just doubt that the change is as radical as it has been in places like Singapore or China, where things seem to be exploding.

And you don't have to be a dick just because you were wrong.

Americanisation/globalisation had been a big issue in the UK until it won.

Americanisation is a big issue everywhere. In fact, Americanisation is probably one of the two main reasons why Al Qaida exists (the other one being Israel).

Geir on a roll

Ok, this is one of those two lots of people shouting at each other threads I guess. They're dull. Enjoy yourselves.

Morrissey is an old man overromanticising the hovels of his youth and the days where "British Culture" was less fractured and there was a vague sense of "national identity".

morrissey was in his youth in the 60s and 70s, i think -- so before all the immigration.

no, sorry, i mean 'during and after' all the immigration.

Enjoy yourselves.

Thanks, don't mind if we do!

Morrissey is an old man overromanticising the hovels of his youth and the days where "British Culture" was less fractured and there was a vague sense of "national identity".

if that knightsbridge comment is anything to go by, he probably doesnt like living here anymore is cos he thinks all the non-white faces in england are ruining ye olde britishness. fair enough, i see nothing wrong with people wanting to preserve traditional britishness, but to him, anyone from somewhere else living here is an immediate threat to that which is the same bollocks argument all the right wingers use. so he can fuck right off. im quite a big morrisey/smiths fan and ive always wondered about the ambiguous tone of bengali in platforms - hes clever nott o come out and say what he means blatantly but it is basically the nice sympathetic face of your casual nationalism.

based on the video clips he plays before his live shows I'm pretty sure Morrissey believes that culture should have remained stagnant after 1965 (except for the New York Dolls)

Morrissey is an old man overromanticising the hovels of his youth and the days where "British Culture" was less fractured and there was a vague sense of "national identity".

well, yeah, and the same goes for most of the bands the nme likes (essentially), but there's a bit of a difference between objecting to what happened in pop music and objecting to, like, immigration -- which predated morrissey's birth (to immigrant parents) anyway.

crosspost

he's not objecting to immigration per se, he's objecting to the perceived specific consequences of immigration in England (or so i suspect).

morrissey was in his youth in the 60s and 70s, i think -- so before all the immigration.

no, sorry, i mean 'during and after' all the immigration.

You think immigration is responsible for the fracturing of the 'British national identity'? I think it's way down the list.

or not even objecting, just lamenting. his examples (quoted) are absurd however and if he had better ones he might get more sympathy/taken more seriously.

"he's not objecting to immigration per se, he's objecting to the perceived specific consequences of immigration in England (or so i suspect)."

i doubt that he cares about the other consequences.

if you end up leaving the country is it because you care or because you don't care?

You think immigration is responsible for the fracturing of the 'British national identity'? I think it's way down the list.

-- Mister Craig, Thursday, 29 November 2007 00:41 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

I think this is a fair point because Morrissey's not attributing any of this fracturing of British national identity to "non-English accents". Oh wait.

I have no idea if he's a racist or not - but he did the smart thing in getting out of England. It's a shithole full of angry, repressed, frustrated, alcoholic, ill-educated people crammed on to part of a tiny island. Give me the US, Australia, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, or Scotland any day.

you've lived in all of these countries?

" ... With the issue of immigration, it's very difficult because although I don't have anything against people from other countries, the higher the influx into England the more the British identity disappears. If you travel to Germany, it's still absolutely Germany. If you travel to Sweden, it still has a Swedish identity. But travel to England and you have no idea where you are... If you walk through Knightsbridge you'll hear every accent apart from an English accent."

I have no idea if he's a racist or not - but he did the smart thing in getting out of England. It's a shithole full of angry, repressed, frustrated, alcoholic, ill-educated people crammed on to part of a tiny island. Give me the US, Australia, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, or Scotland any day.

-- Emily S., Thursday, 29 November 2007 00:54 (10 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

^^^this is true except Americans, Australians, and Brazilians are all awful people

Possibly not as bad as the English though, apart from the Australians

And Brazilian couriers

You think immigration is responsible for the fracturing of the 'British national identity'? I think it's way down the list.

-- Mister Craig, Thursday, 29 November 2007 00:41 (5 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

I think this is a fair point because Morrissey's not attributing any of this fracturing of British national identity to "non-English accents". Oh wait.

-- Dom Passantino, Thursday, 29 November 2007 00:48 (12 minutes ago) Bookmark Link

If you view the post in the context it was intended, to reject a false assumption in the comment I was responding to, i.e.

morrissey was in his youth in the 60s and 70s, i think -- so before all the immigration.

no, sorry, i mean 'during and after' all the immigration.

and refer to Morrissey's comments

"It's not true that the reason I wouldn't wish to live in England is the immigration explosion"

"The British identity (is/was) very attractive...I grew up into it, and I find it quaint and amusing. But (that) is a memory now"

To the question 'Isn't immigration enriching rather than diluting the British identity?'

"It does in a way, and it's nice in its way. But you have to say goodbye to the Britain that you once knew"

Then you might get a broader scope on his views. If you want.

And don't you think the *perceived* proliferation of non-English speakers *affects* the British national identity in some way?

Basically I think Morrissey is saying he misses a romanticised post-war Britain that was essentially fictional anyway, and that the modern world is increasingly unrecognisable to him.

Is he a racist for thinking that it's possible to have an overgenerous immigration policy?

Shit, that needed indents.

having thought about this for an hour or two, I think I need to rephrase what I said...

Morrissey's love of nation is much closer to a sort of High Romanticism than it is any sort of patriotism. I think thats why things like "Bengali In Platforms" have never really bothered me: many writers (of any sort, song or otherwise) are in love with things that never really existed. Thats why it seems so insane to me that anyone could mistake the comments of a (great) pop singer/lyricist for the comments of a member of the National Front.

"He's wearing rose-colored glasses instead of swastikas, therefore it's uncriticizable."

lol swinburning its pretty easy to mistake the comments of someone who "is in love with a thing that never really existed" based on a romantic concept of people- or nationhood with a member of the national front because, uh, the national front is all about the romanticization of a people or nation that never really existed in the way they think of it.

see: fascism.

Hey, this all worked for Eric Clapton, didn't it?

Also, I think Dom is jealous that Morrissey has zinged the NME about ten million times and he never will.

I have no idea if he's a racist or not - but he did the smart thing in getting out of England. It's a shithole full of angry, repressed, frustrated, alcoholic, ill-educated people crammed on to part of a tiny island. Give me the US, Australia, Canada, Mexico, Brazil, or Scotland any day.

-- Emily S., Thursday, 29 November 2007 00:54 (8 hours ago) Link

now this i can get behind, except the last sentence.