list of involuntary reactions to the new le tigre 'single'

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i'd totally buy a kathy unstoppable sex machine

cinniblount (James Blount), Friday, 20 August 2004 02:46 (nineteen years ago) link

oh.. right. i was sort of thinking that it might stand in this case for Utterly Shite Music.

Sterling Clover (s_clover), Friday, 20 August 2004 04:48 (nineteen years ago) link

It's better than 'We Don't Play Guitars' by Chicks on Speed. It actually gave me a tingly neck listening to it, because this statement can't be made enough. And, as Green Gartside once put it, 'If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing badly ('baby')'.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 20 August 2004 07:27 (nineteen years ago) link

(PS: Le Tigre's single shares with Ned Raggett's review of it the articulation of a certain normative and conformist hostility. But war is a much more valid target for collective hate than Le Tigre.)

Momus (Momus), Friday, 20 August 2004 07:31 (nineteen years ago) link

"And, as Green Gartside once put it, 'If a thing's worth doing, it's worth doing badly ('baby')'".

this means that le tigre's song should be judged especially for its political content?

Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Friday, 20 August 2004 07:34 (nineteen years ago) link

I think politics and aesthetics are all tangled up, so yes.

(PS2: The video shows a banner that says 'Wars shouldn't be started by draft dodgers.' I'd just like to say that the last three words are redundant and cloud the message, and should have been left out, or pixellated, to erase the silly idea that someone who had served in the military would have the right to start a war.)

Momus (Momus), Friday, 20 August 2004 07:36 (nineteen years ago) link

I think politics and aesthetics are all tangled up, so yes.

Politics and aesthetics can be tangled up, but a bad song is just this and nothing more. Some Eisenstein movies could have a disturbing Stalinist subtext, still they remain a good film (bad comparison, I know, but first thing I could made up).

Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Friday, 20 August 2004 07:42 (nineteen years ago) link

good intentions produce bad literature, someone said; i don't think its necessarily true, i'd say good intentions WITHOUT style etc etc

Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Friday, 20 August 2004 07:45 (nineteen years ago) link

"...that's why I started from "Mother" onwards trying to shave off all imagery, pretensions of poetry, illusions of grandeur, I call it a la Dylan, Dylanesque, you know. I didn't write any of that. Just say what it is, simple English, make it rhyme and put a backbeat on it and express yourself as simply as possible, straightforwardly as possible. As they say, Northern people are blunt...so I was trying to write like I am and I enjoy the poetic side..."

John Lennon, author of 'Give Peace A Chance', a song I'm glad exists.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 20 August 2004 07:48 (nineteen years ago) link

I understand. after all, i love Rudyard Kipling, so I think this is really the great divide. :)

Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Friday, 20 August 2004 07:51 (nineteen years ago) link

Of course, when it comes to lyrics, J-Lenn's 'simple' is ahead of K-Hann's:

Two, one two three four
Ev'rybody's talking about
Bagism, Shagism, Dragism, Madism, Ragism, Tagism
This-ism, that-ism, is-m, is-m, is-m.

All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance

C'mon
Ev'rybody's talking about Ministers,
Sinisters, Banisters and canisters
Bishops and Fishops and Rabbis and Pop eyes,
And bye bye, bye byes.

All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance

Let me tell you now
Ev'rybody's talking about
Revolution, evolution, masturbation,
flagellation, regulation, integrations,
meditations, United Nations,
Congratulations.

All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance

Ev'rybody's talking about
John and Yoko, Timmy Leary, Rosemary,
Tommy Smothers, Bobby Dylan, Tommy Cooper,
Derek Taylor, Norman Mailer,
Alan Ginsberg, Hare Krishna,
Hare, Hare Krishna

All we are saying is give peace a chance
All we are saying is give peace a chance

Momus (Momus), Friday, 20 August 2004 07:52 (nineteen years ago) link

but can i say that _imagine_ is the most authentically nihilistic song ever?

Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Friday, 20 August 2004 07:56 (nineteen years ago) link

Zen only looks nihilistic from the west.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 20 August 2004 08:00 (nineteen years ago) link

yes, but _imagine_, at least in my opinion, is zen as seen through a very thick, very western fog.

Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Friday, 20 August 2004 08:03 (nineteen years ago) link

'Imagine' contains the same message about religion as this song by Harry Partch:

'Have you confessed your sins to Jesus?
My dear boy, get this:
The sin of your body was invented by a gang of holy quacks.
If you like their invention, that's your business.
I don't.
Practice of the common virtues of honesty, kindness, understanding, consideration for mankind
Has nothing to do with religion and never has
Had anything to do with it.
And religion as it is practiced is one of the curses of the race.'

Momus (Momus), Friday, 20 August 2004 08:04 (nineteen years ago) link

Avast! "Give Peace a Chance" be catchy, says I

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 August 2004 08:04 (nineteen years ago) link

the nihilism in _imagine_ is not in its relationship with religion(s), in any case widely debatable: it lies in its relationship with the concept of truth (no capitals here!). and:

A final lesson of our comparison is this: the
Zen Buddhists do not think differently than the
Western philosophers. When it comes to defining
truth and articulating the metaphysical assumptions
behind the practieal application of
this theory, the difference between the traditions
is slight. The Zen and Aristotelian/Thomistic
traditions diverge only when they consider what the
purpose of thinking is and what the basic
relationship between man and world is.
Aristotle/Thomas and Hui-neng/Lin-chi/Dogen are not
sets of writers who think differently; they are
groups of philosophers who disagree about what we
should think about.
(B.P.Kasulis, Philosophy East and West)

Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Friday, 20 August 2004 08:11 (nineteen years ago) link

The things negated by 'Imagine':

heaven,
hell
countries,
things to kill or die for
religion
war
possesions
greed
hunger
property

Things affirmed by 'Imagine':

sky
living for today
peace
dreams
brotherhood
sharing
unity

Momus (Momus), Friday, 20 August 2004 08:18 (nineteen years ago) link

What's so 'subversive' about 'Imagine', though, is the way it works like a well-conceived, simple and effective advertising campaign ('It's easy if you try!' 'Join us!') for a rather complex point of view which links war with property, nationalism and religion.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 20 August 2004 08:30 (nineteen years ago) link

maybe i should add that I don't mean nihilistic, in this context, with an "evil" connotation. :)

in my opinion, lennon's nihilism is based on the refuse/repulsion of what is (or has been considered) the simple truth of human condition: war AND peace, heaven AND sky, property AND sharing etc. A world without the idea of god would be maybe better, surely wouldn't be human. utopia is nihilistic almost by definition.
by the way, i've always been surprised by the ecumenical (no pun here) success of this song, even at Republican conventions!, despite its content...

sorry my english isn't good enough so i cannot properly explain me...

Marco Damiani (Marco D.), Friday, 20 August 2004 08:31 (nineteen years ago) link

Bah! That video link DOES NOT WORK FOR ME!

Is it on SLSK at all?

mei (mei), Friday, 20 August 2004 08:32 (nineteen years ago) link

BTW I saw LT twice the last time they toured Britain and both times they played two new songs that were fantastic in a blind-to-sense extremo-stupid-bizarre-feminist-extremist way. Why not release one of those???

mei (mei), Friday, 20 August 2004 08:33 (nineteen years ago) link

Admittedly one was about 'dyke visiblity', and they are on a major label now...

mei (mei), Friday, 20 August 2004 08:33 (nineteen years ago) link

What kind of wacky label'd sign them and not expect songs like that tho? AND, um what label are they on then?

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 August 2004 08:41 (nineteen years ago) link

the Chicks On Speed have proved to be a very BAD influence on Le Tigre.
very bad, indeed.

joan vich (joan vich), Friday, 20 August 2004 09:34 (nineteen years ago) link

Just listening to this and I honestly don't think it's that bad.

The peoblem, maybe, is that people were taking them seriosuly before this came out.

mei (mei), Friday, 20 August 2004 11:00 (nineteen years ago) link

Have you heard their first Lp?

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 August 2004 11:03 (nineteen years ago) link

Yes, I love it, and theire second, maybe even more. Why?

mei (mei), Friday, 20 August 2004 11:06 (nineteen years ago) link

Well that's my "problem" w/this, that's all

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 August 2004 11:07 (nineteen years ago) link

Btu they've always ben (lyrically) about naive sloganeering. I's one of their strengths.

mei (mei), Friday, 20 August 2004 11:13 (nineteen years ago) link

(I'm really bad at typing today)

mei (mei), Friday, 20 August 2004 11:17 (nineteen years ago) link

"Now here's alright"? "Wanna see me disco"? Also, tunes, dynamics, CATCHINESS! Sorry but Le Tigre post first Lp disappoint and piss me off badly (I'm bad at getting over how much I love the first record ALWAYS, M).

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 August 2004 11:20 (nineteen years ago) link

Although I don't share others' dissapointment with what they did post-first LP, I can see where they're coming from.

But this song really isn't awful or anything, just not as good.
It's looking like the member they lost after the first LP was key, isn't it?

mei (mei), Friday, 20 August 2004 11:23 (nineteen years ago) link

That's been me and my (KH fan posted above at some point) friend's theory for a while, yeah. Along w/those nasty speculations I made above about sloganeering/ensuring lyrical clarity and shit. Nice to see you/Anthony suspect as much too, oh Sadie come back even if you don't have a wussy 12yrold boy's moustache

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 August 2004 11:29 (nineteen years ago) link

The rhythm on the "Give Peace A Chance" single is truly inspiring

sexyDancer, Friday, 20 August 2004 11:56 (nineteen years ago) link

M this song IS awful, tho

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 August 2004 12:28 (nineteen years ago) link

The rhythm on 'Give Peace A Chance'...

B-but it's the same rhythm used on 'We Didn't Start The Fire' by Billy Joel!

Momus (Momus), Friday, 20 August 2004 12:29 (nineteen years ago) link

That's a cool song too

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 August 2004 12:30 (nineteen years ago) link

I think what I'm trying to say here is that awfulness or greatness can never be discussed in purely formal terms. We have to consider ethics, worldview, timing, karma and all sorts of other imponderables when considering why one record is great and another awful. Not just the artist's, but our own, and the surrounding climate. 'Imagine' released for the first time in 2004 would be almost meaningless, for instance.

Momus (Momus), Friday, 20 August 2004 12:32 (nineteen years ago) link

Oh dear, Sterling is OTM, this DOES remind me of Carter USM, also the Shamen just after they discovered beats ("Jesus Loves Amerika") and early PWEI and oh god AGE OF CHANCE!!! - Le Tigre starting the grebo revival, who'd have thought it, mind you I've been playing that Fierce Girl single non stop today too so it's clearly an afternoon for 'guilty pleasures'.

Tico Tico (Tico Tico), Friday, 20 August 2004 12:34 (nineteen years ago) link

It's better than 'We Don't Play Guitars' by Chicks on Speed.

Momus, are you being "ironic" or is there something wrong with your brain?

Matthew Perpetua (Matthew Perpetua), Friday, 20 August 2004 12:34 (nineteen years ago) link

"Imagine" has a beautiful piano phrase, at LEAST, this has nothing. Get over theory a little Momus

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 August 2004 12:35 (nineteen years ago) link

A gorgeous vocal, too. KH doesn't even try singing on this. And no, my values in regards to songs aren't about to be shifted by prevailing whatever forces anytime soon, and also GO BUSH GO if this is a good example of antiwar activity

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 August 2004 12:37 (nineteen years ago) link

Using Green Gartside as an example to justify RELEASING RECORDS was pretty wacky btw

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 August 2004 12:38 (nineteen years ago) link

Texture > Text

sexyDancer, Friday, 20 August 2004 13:25 (nineteen years ago) link

It doesn't have either

Andrew Blood Thames (Andrew Thames), Friday, 20 August 2004 13:26 (nineteen years ago) link

It wasn't so bad the second time I watched it

until the NO BLOOD FOR OIL part

())(())()()()(()(LASER)()()()LA(Z)E(R)()()()((L)()()(A)(S(E)R()()()) (ex machina, Friday, 20 August 2004 13:32 (nineteen years ago) link

sorry, I was reffering to Give Peace a Chance again. The recorded rhythm on that record is amazing. Simultaenously wooden and elastic. "Says" more about group harmony than the vocal, which is also genius in it's grand, devotional focus to the small, fleeting moments in private decision.

As far as this le tigre is concerned, I have access to a recording of Eleanor Roosevelt telling a racist joke about the Japanese while entertaining troops, if we're all curious about what democracy sounds like.

But for the video, hey: they're shootin' hoops, brah!

sexyDancer, Friday, 20 August 2004 13:37 (nineteen years ago) link

Come on, I wanna see the viseo, where's a working version?
Someone mail it to me?

PLEASE!
I'M DESPERATE!!!

mei (mei), Friday, 20 August 2004 13:57 (nineteen years ago) link

Oh dear, Sterling is OTM, this DOES remind me of Carter USM

No wonder I loathe it so much.

Leon Czolgosz (Nicole), Friday, 20 August 2004 15:14 (nineteen years ago) link


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