(And people defend Steve Earle on there too, come to think of it!)
xp
― xhuxk, Monday, 14 November 2005 18:49 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alfred Soto (Alfred Soto), Monday, 14 November 2005 18:53 (eighteen years ago) link
But either way, this question should really end "punk," not "good," Tim. The question is whether Alex could possibly conceive of someone like her ever doing something punk (whether it's good or not).
― xhuxk, Monday, 14 November 2005 18:56 (eighteen years ago) link
Passive aggressively yours,
Frank
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 14 November 2005 20:11 (eighteen years ago) link
And Alex, I think you have a lot to teach me. I just wonder how to drag your knowledge out of you.
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 14 November 2005 20:14 (eighteen years ago) link
(Back to the day gig.)
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Monday, 14 November 2005 20:15 (eighteen years ago) link
Pure projection, and wrong. NO ONE actually thinks this. come on now, we are ten years past both Dookie and Nevermind, for God's sake. It's been done, and much better.
"Hell, [Alex] might even be *right*, for all I know."
He is.
― JD from CDepot, Monday, 14 November 2005 20:36 (eighteen years ago) link
Parting comment: Ashlee Simpson's is simply not Punk Rock. If an alien from another world appeared and earnestly asked to be shown examples of Punk Rock, would you cite Ashlee?
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 14 November 2005 20:37 (eighteen years ago) link
wiDow
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Monday, 14 November 2005 20:38 (eighteen years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 15 November 2005 19:40 (eighteen years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 15 November 2005 19:42 (eighteen years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 15 November 2005 19:44 (eighteen years ago) link
― JD from CDepot, Tuesday, 15 November 2005 19:44 (eighteen years ago) link
"not until you explain why bad things happen to good people!"
― 'Twan (miccio), Tuesday, 15 November 2005 19:47 (eighteen years ago) link
= i. i want my zimmer frame and i WANT IT NOW = ii. haha if ilm has demonstrated ANYTHING it is that in 20 years time we will still be discussing the merits of EVERYONE
i.&ii. are nicely contradictory hence mark s = punk-as-fuck
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 15 November 2005 19:50 (eighteen years ago) link
in communion (my second favourite film EVAH) christopher walken discovers the aliens DISCO DANCING
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 15 November 2005 19:53 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 15 November 2005 20:02 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 15 November 2005 20:04 (eighteen years ago) link
― s1ocki (slutsky), Tuesday, 15 November 2005 20:24 (eighteen years ago) link
― detoxyDancer (sexyDancer), Tuesday, 15 November 2005 21:10 (eighteen years ago) link
― mark s (mark s), Tuesday, 15 November 2005 21:13 (eighteen years ago) link
― jaymc (jaymc), Tuesday, 15 November 2005 21:17 (eighteen years ago) link
― schwantz, Tuesday, 15 November 2005 22:34 (eighteen years ago) link
― Ned Raggett (Ned), Tuesday, 15 November 2005 22:39 (eighteen years ago) link
In other words, I'm not allowed to muck around with FACTS, specifically the FACT that Ashlee Simpson in NO WAY Punk Rock.
If an alien from another world appeared and earnestly asked to be shown examples of Punk Rock, i wd point to alex's heroically changeless mr.dadrock-gets-uptight declamations down decades of ilm, and say, "punk is the OPPOSITE OF THAT"
I've never claimed to be the embodiment of Punk Rock.
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Wednesday, 16 November 2005 00:28 (eighteen years ago) link
In any event, this thread has been terrific and has helped me greatly in pulling my thoughts together; especially thank you to Cunga and to Phil for your descriptions of the Ashlee image.
Also, thanks to me for suckering mark s back onto ILX.
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 18 November 2005 04:25 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 18 November 2005 04:33 (eighteen years ago) link
now let us never speak of it again.
― 'Twan (miccio), Friday, 18 November 2005 04:34 (eighteen years ago) link
I know that someone might jump on that and tell me that you can't separate your aesthetic perceptions from your background and your psychological makeup, but what would someone be trying to establish by saying something like this?
Tim, someone (i.e., me) isn't trying to "establish" anything but rather trying to cajole, incite, inspire, badger you folks into saying why you hear a particular piece of music in a particular way. And that involves (1) describing what's going on in the music when you hear glossiness or rawness of punk or whatever, and (2) what's going on in your life that makes you hear glossiness or rawness or punk (esp. when other people are hearing something else).
Maybe social categories are aesthetic categories; it doesn't really matter to me which you use to explain the other; it does matter that you make an effort to explain - that is to say that you make an effort to communicate your experience and your ideas and that you make an attempt to explore where those experiences and ideas come from and why you in particular have and hold them. Of course, you can just spend your time stating an opinion and holding it against all comers. That's what a lot of ILX threads are, basically.
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 18 November 2005 05:04 (eighteen years ago) link
― latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 18 November 2005 05:33 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 18 November 2005 05:57 (eighteen years ago) link
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 18 November 2005 06:08 (eighteen years ago) link
So, everyone who votes blue is a punk, and therefore is not eligible for "conversion"?
I don't think I've heard a Steve Earle song in my life, but I'll guess that one of the reasons that Montgomery Gentry might come across as "more punk" than Earle is that they're bullies and creeps and he apparently isn't a bully or a creep. (Nowadays Montgomery is dressing his creepiness in unctuousness and piety, which makes it even creepier.) Also, my guess is that Earle doesn't rock as hard as they do. That seems to be the general opinion. By the way, Montgomery Gentry are punk way way way way WAY more often than Ashlee is. I hadn't given a thought to Ashlee's being punk until I heard "I Am Me" a couple of weeks ago and read posted on this thread that her image apparently has something to do with punk as conceived by who knows who. Montgomery Gentry don't have punk in their image. They merely act like punks. (And I don't think anyone called them "punk" at all until a couple of days ago, when for half a sentence I did, when the discussion here spilled briefly back onto the Rolling Country thread. But I'm not seeing enough of the board these days, so you may be right, that they're being touted as punks.)
What in the world is "punk traditionalism"? What's a punk tradition? Killing your girlfriend? Dyeing your hair pink and purple? (I once saw Todd Rundgren with rainbow hair, in 1974. What a punk!)
I don't see Ashlee as doing much in the way of transgression either. So what?
"it sure looks and sounds like punk is something Ashlee picked up at the mall."
Again, so what? Where's she supposed to pick it up, in a whorehouse?
― Frank Kogan (Frank Kogan), Friday, 18 November 2005 06:18 (eighteen years ago) link
pauline kael, j.d. salinger, james thurber = more punk than ashlee simpson
― J.D. (Justyn Dillingham), Friday, 18 November 2005 06:25 (eighteen years ago) link
it doesn't really matter to me which you use to explain the other; it does matter that you make an effort to explain - that is to say that you make an effort to communicate your experience and your ideas and that you make an attempt to explore where those experiences and ideas come from and why you in particular have and hold them. Of course, you can just spend your time stating an opinion and holding it against all comers. That's what a lot of ILX threads are, basically.<
Frank, do you realize how preachy and self-righteous this sounds?
Looking back at your posts on this thread, I don't see as that you've done any of this either! Where does your idea that a song like "La La" is good come from? Why do you in particular think that this is so? What's going on in your life that makes you hear it as "good?"
― Tim Ellison (Tim Ellison), Friday, 18 November 2005 07:29 (eighteen years ago) link
― Alex in NYC (vassifer), Friday, 18 November 2005 07:31 (eighteen years ago) link
Montgomery Gentry also remind me of the Ramones:
"You Beat Your Brat (I'll Beat Mine)"
― xhuxk, Friday, 18 November 2005 14:20 (eighteen years ago) link
― xhuxk, Friday, 18 November 2005 14:49 (eighteen years ago) link
― xhuxk, Friday, 18 November 2005 14:59 (eighteen years ago) link
― xhuxk, Friday, 18 November 2005 15:12 (eighteen years ago) link
I've got Ashlee on now. Yeah, there are elements of punk, I guess. I little burr in her voice, some attitude. No more or less than, maybe, Pat Benetar, or Nancy Sinatra. One song sounds strangely like the Cardigans. Nice CD.
― Sang Freud (jeff_s), Friday, 18 November 2005 15:53 (eighteen years ago) link
― latebloomer (latebloomer), Friday, 18 November 2005 15:55 (eighteen years ago) link
― Sang Freud (jeff_s), Friday, 18 November 2005 16:05 (eighteen years ago) link
Sang, where exactly do you get this idea? Why wouldn't you just think that the intent is to describe how the music sounds, what it does?
― xhuxk, Friday, 18 November 2005 16:14 (eighteen years ago) link
― xhuxk, Friday, 18 November 2005 16:21 (eighteen years ago) link
― xhuxk, Friday, 18 November 2005 16:25 (eighteen years ago) link
wonderful. like im gonna get any work done today with that image floating around my head.
― JD from CDepot, Friday, 18 November 2005 16:33 (eighteen years ago) link