― spittle (spittle), Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:36 (twenty years ago) link
I agree. I was turning against my own claim (though it got a little garbled).
― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:41 (twenty years ago) link
"the "indie" voice? You know the voice I mean. It can be male or female, and it can front music noisy or lissome, but it has a kind of flattened self-awareness -- which sometimes signals irony, sometimes melancholy, sometimes even happiness but happiness of a knowing this-too-shall-pass variety"
referred to the prototypes sundar lists:
"Kraftwerk? Syd Barrett/David Gilmour? Closer/New Order/Pet Shop Boys? The Wire singer who's not Colin Newman? Hip-hop?"
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:44 (twenty years ago) link
― sexyDancer, Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:46 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:46 (twenty years ago) link
if the "self-awareness" is essentially wrongheaded then i think it can still be characterized as naive, i think.
― duke distinkt, Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:48 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:49 (twenty years ago) link
Are you saying that Lou Reed was doing a "McGuinn vocal readymade???"
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:50 (twenty years ago) link
As for hip-hop, I think Q-tip fits the mold in some ways. Maybe Mos Def too. Including Jay-Z would be pushing it, but he's probably the "coolest" of the superstars. (Nothing cool about crunk, e.g.)
But obviously, I'm just making up shit as I go.
(x-post) haha, yeah, maybe faux self-awareness is a form of naivete. I don't know.
― spittle (spittle), Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:50 (twenty years ago) link
― sundar subramanian (sundar), Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:50 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:51 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:52 (twenty years ago) link
― spittle (spittle), Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:53 (twenty years ago) link
that's a good point. east coast vs. west coast?
― duke nilsson, Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:54 (twenty years ago) link
― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:54 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:54 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:55 (twenty years ago) link
I gotta check out the pronunciation of "ship." Are you referring to a line in "Mr Tambourine Man" and the great big clipper ship line in "Heroin?"
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:56 (twenty years ago) link
― spittle (spittle), Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:56 (twenty years ago) link
Pete Lush of Things In Herds has this voice. I think he sounds even more like Nick; he maintains more of the huskiness.
Audio sample
― Curt1s St3ph3ns, Sunday, 18 April 2004 18:56 (twenty years ago) link
Not exactly comic, no -- but there is a kind of implied absurdity, it's part of the whole self-conscious thing. Like, I'm aware I'm singing a song, and you the listener are aware that I'm aware I'm singing a song, and the song might be a beautiful thing that we can both appreciate, and maybe even connect with each other at some level by way of, but at the same time it's just a song that I'm singing, and it will be over soon, and such is life, etc. etc. Which might be a lot to read into Astrud Gilberto, e.g., but that's kind of what it sounds like to me.
― spittle (spittle), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:00 (twenty years ago) link
― duke crazy, Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:04 (twenty years ago) link
and it doesn't even have to be "ship" it could be "grip" as well.
and you should get michael franks's debut if you want to here stuart murdoch in 1970.
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:13 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:16 (twenty years ago) link
― Sonny A. (Keiko), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:20 (twenty years ago) link
As I argued upthread, I don't hear it. The only specific examples anyone came up with was someone like Julian Casablancas.
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:23 (twenty years ago) link
― Sonny A. (Keiko), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:25 (twenty years ago) link
(xpost) As for Lou, what about Richard Hell, Tom Verlaine and Jonathan Richman? And Patti Smith, for that matter? I don't think any of them exactly sounds like Lou Reed, but they all have stylistic things in common with him that they don't have in common with, say, Ben E. King or Roger Daltrey.
― spittle (spittle), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:28 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:29 (twenty years ago) link
Lou's always been prickly on Dylan, from what I've read. I think he thinks of himself more as a contemporary and peer than a descendant. I remember one interview where he made some backhanded compliment about how Dylan sometimes writes lines that just knock him out. (Paul Simon is always similarly admiring of but undeferential to Dylan. I guess it's hard to be a singer-songwriter of Dylan's generation.)
― spittle (spittle), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:31 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:31 (twenty years ago) link
― Rockist Scientist (rockistscientist), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:31 (twenty years ago) link
he's totally malkmus-ized for someone so 'heartland.' with dylan influencing out to the coasts, maybe now you have coasts influencing back towards the center?
― duke geographic, Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:33 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:33 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:34 (twenty years ago) link
― spittle (spittle), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:34 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:35 (twenty years ago) link
And, as I understand it, the music of Jonathan Richman as we know it would not exist without Lou Reed.
― Sonny A. (Keiko), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:35 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:37 (twenty years ago) link
― noodle vague (noodle vague), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:37 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:39 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:41 (twenty years ago) link
― scott seward (scott seward), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:42 (twenty years ago) link
but just to have the idea to even want do that was cool, no? and in such a way that ramblin' jack would not ultimately be party to.
― duke zimmerman, Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:42 (twenty years ago) link
"Baker's singing itself functions on many levels, examining them constituting a certain kind of critical archaelogy. You start to dig and first you come across what Rex Reed and many other commentators on the subject have described with words like 'innocent' and 'sweetness.' Keep digging and at a certain point you come across a layer of irony, but hammer in your cerebral pickaxes a little deeper and you reach ... more innocence. His pared-down technical machinery at times suggests a hip Alfalfa, a little kid circa 1940, singing grown-up songs, cooing rather than screeching up to the mike and pretending to be a romantic crooner, like a little lady making believe in her mother's formal gown; the preciou precociousness of the thought makes it so endearing.
At other times Baker takes a 360 degree turn: rather than a child feigning emotional maturity, he becomes a rather tainted Lothario in a fruitless search for lost innocence. It's to Baker's credit that he's the most widely debated vocalist since Al Jolson: to some there are incredibly deep emotions stirring or about to be stirred when he sings, while to others, there's a whole lot of nothing going on, and to still others, that in itself is attractive -- a Jim Hoberman says, it's like 'being sweet-talked by the void.'"
― jaymc (jaymc), Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:49 (twenty years ago) link
Maybe there are loads of Lou types (the first John Cougar album is supposed to be Lou Reed influenced--you mention Dream Syndicate, etc.), but I still don't think this was the vocal archetype spittle was originally talking about.
The only Dream Syndicate record I like is the first, self-titled EP on Down There Records. Man, that record is good! A lot of people like the Days of Wine and Roses LP, but I think it's mushy sounding and maybe not too compelling as an album. Too bad that early EP is rare now.
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 18 April 2004 19:55 (twenty years ago) link
i was saying almost the same thing today, except about neil hagerty's guitar playing.
― duke virginia, Sunday, 18 April 2004 20:12 (twenty years ago) link
― Tim Ellison, Sunday, 18 April 2004 20:15 (twenty years ago) link
― sexyDancer, Sunday, 18 April 2004 20:19 (twenty years ago) link
― amateur!st (amateurist), Sunday, 18 April 2004 20:20 (twenty years ago) link
Yeah but you find a lot of the world incredible, don't you
― nabisco, Saturday, 29 December 2007 20:05 (sixteen years ago) link
Way too much. This thread lacks credibility. :)
― Geir Hongro, Saturday, 29 December 2007 20:35 (sixteen years ago) link
chad & jeremy? townes van zandt, when he wasn't self-consciously singing in a 'country' style.
― ian, Saturday, 29 December 2007 20:55 (sixteen years ago) link
i think i am just thinking chad & jeremy because they always remind me of B&S, but i don't think it's the voice that does it ...
― ian, Saturday, 29 December 2007 20:57 (sixteen years ago) link
Why All Indie Singers Sound Weirdly The Same
― sleeve, Thursday, 15 December 2016 23:35 (seven years ago) link
I think the sound of indie-rock as we know it today was created by the Red Krayola on their 2nd album. Listen to The Jewels of the Madonna. If that isn't an scarrily accurate precurser to what indie-rock would sound like in the 80s/90s I don't know what is.
― Dan Selzer (Dan Selzer), zondag 18 april 2004 17:49 (twelve years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
Holy shit.
― Le Bateau Ivre, Friday, 16 December 2016 09:07 (seven years ago) link
makes you wonder if they had similar sensibilites to the indie scene or if they just stumbled upon a sound that wld become influential 15 years later
― niels, Friday, 16 December 2016 09:30 (seven years ago) link
I think Dan beat me to it but...
Red Krayola: 2nd album (I think I said somewhere else that this is the album that invented indie rock! In other words, you probably wouldn't want to listen to it too often)― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 April 2005 09:10 (eleven years ago) Permalink
― Dadaismus (Dada), Friday, 22 April 2005 09:10 (eleven years ago) Permalink
― The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Friday, 16 December 2016 09:59 (seven years ago) link
"Children of Danger" by the Memphis Goons was recorded around 70, that always seemed v proto indie
― blonde redheads have more fun (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Friday, 16 December 2016 14:05 (seven years ago) link
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXnoWb88Jr4
― earlnash, Friday, 16 December 2016 14:33 (seven years ago) link
What is an example of a singer who is being spoofed in sleeve's video? I think I have an idea of what she is talking about but I think it is probably different from the singers the OP was thinking of.
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Friday, 16 December 2016 15:18 (seven years ago) link
This is the first thing I thought of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyASdjZE0R0
― altony rightano (voodoo chili), Friday, 16 December 2016 15:40 (seven years ago) link
Well, yeah, if anything, it sounded more like she was talking about pop singers. Rozes totally sounds like that, though, I agree.
― My Body's Made of Crushed Little Evening Stars (Sund4r), Friday, 16 December 2016 15:55 (seven years ago) link
FWIW around 2000/2001 when I was first really becoming aware of "indie", some of the indie heads I knew were really into Red Krayola. Probably by then it had already been cited by some Wire-type mag as proto-indie though.
― the last famous person you were surprised to discover was actually (man alive), Friday, 16 December 2016 16:43 (seven years ago) link
I find it incredible how Ray Davies has yet to be mentioned here.
― Geir Hongro, Saturday, December 29, 2007 2:50 PM (eight years ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
imo he's too dynamic and Kinks songs move around melodically a whole lot. same with Syd Barrett as mentioned way above.
instinctually i want to trace cool indie voice to Lou Reed but he seems to have too much fun w his singing. it needs to be performative and bored. the vocal in "Sunday Morning" is kind of relaxed but a bit too dreamy. "Who Loves the Sun" could be a source, certainly lyrics-wise, but again it sounds too fun.
the early takes of "Strawberry Fields Forever" kind of fit. the vocal melody is pretty relaxed and obviously bored. it's just kind of one-note murmuring for a bit ("No one i think is in my tree") and then becomes self-conscious about that for the rest of it and starts gliding around sort of at random ("I mean i think I know..."). maybe? then there's "Revolution 1" on the White Album where the vocals were recording while lying on the floor for that bored/relaxed effect to counter the lyrics.
the root of indie cool voice is imo in that era of psychedelic pop, variety shows where the hosts put on sunglasses and "acted cool" introducing the Strawberry Alarm Clock or whoever. maybe the most high-profile form is in Monkees songs, that bored inflection used to the sing the verses of the theme song, the indie cool hinted at in that affected sigh after "We've got something to say ..... aww"
― AdamVania (Adam Bruneau), Friday, 16 December 2016 17:14 (seven years ago) link
this seems like it should be a big influence on later folks, but i don't think anyone heard it until the 2006 archival release:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sYB26-cqMMo
― scott seward, Friday, 16 December 2016 18:16 (seven years ago) link
wait, not manfred mann, this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syVOWmLWFys&t=434s
― scott seward, Friday, 16 December 2016 18:19 (seven years ago) link
ugh i don't know if that is showing up. the sibylle baier record. recorded in the early 70's.
― scott seward, Friday, 16 December 2016 18:20 (seven years ago) link
ALSO, since i notice that dan brought up red krayola above, i was playing corky's debt to his father recently and man oh man its hard to believe that came out in 1970. could have been yesterday.
― scott seward, Friday, 16 December 2016 18:23 (seven years ago) link
"Who Loves the Sun" could be a source, certainly lyrics-wise, but again it sounds too fun.
Also it's sung by Doug Yule.
― The Doug Walters of Crime (Tom D.), Friday, 16 December 2016 18:25 (seven years ago) link