i don't understand
― wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:29 (eleven years ago) link
honestly, physical music media is over for most of the world and always will be from hereon out. doesn't really matter how or why it happened, i just hope that someone finds a way for people who make music to not be totally SOL because of it in a way that doesn't involve a bunch of us nerds who still fetishize physical product demanding everyone else be more like us.
― here's my lumber, so jack me maybe (some dude), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:30 (eleven years ago) link
^
― hot knives, wind was blowin' (Ówen P.), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:31 (eleven years ago) link
sorry that was an except from my beat poem about the death of '80s indie rock. I just mean I've been where this college DJ/tastemaker person is on the privilege scale, but she's so openly glib about her spoils that I don't understand why people want to begrudge lowery (who ran a diy label in 1985 donchaknow) his guilt-trip/factoid pull
― da croupier, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:32 (eleven years ago) link
if someone said this about, I dunno, food or clothing or shelter they would rightly be laughed off the face of the earth
so you understand the difference between a good that can be reproduced a million times for no cost and one that can't? hmmmm, interesting
her idea is a legit one, but the idea of Spotify being free or only $5 a month or whatever is absurd. but yes this is the future of everything
― frogbs, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:32 (eleven years ago) link
and yeah, while i plan to become a real patron of the arts if and when i go up an economic notch, that will really only benefit guys like David Lowery, and not the horseshit only a new college student could love
― da croupier, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:33 (eleven years ago) link
xpost to croup
ah ok i agree w/that
― wack nerd zinging in the dead of night (upper mississippi sh@kedown), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:33 (eleven years ago) link
frogs don't ever say "hmmm, interesting" again k
music is not produced at no cost frogbs thx for playing
― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:34 (eleven years ago) link
fine, so long as you stop posting altogether
― frogbs, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:34 (eleven years ago) link
Just curious, how many of y'all are gonna lay off by July 11th? Oh sorry. IF YOU DID download shit, would that hypothetical you quit doing so in about two weeks?
― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:34 (eleven years ago) link
Hypothetical me probably will tbqh.
either you're intentionally trying to misunderstand this so you can get off an invaluable quip like "thx for playing" or you truly are that dumb
― frogbs, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:35 (eleven years ago) link
since i got addicted to Spotify pretty much the only things i download anymore are things i buy or that are sent to me by the artist/label. which is why i'm hoping there's gold in them thar clouds for musicians somewhere down the line.
― here's my lumber, so jack me maybe (some dude), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:36 (eleven years ago) link
I only d/l things that are either by old, rich and/or dead people, or out of print and otherwise unavailable. won't dl anything from current artists trying to make a living, just on principle. don't do subscription services either, cuz they don't pay us shit.
― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:38 (eleven years ago) link
yeah not really. reproduction and production of music don't happen for free (servers cost money! recording costs money! engineers cost money!) etc
― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:39 (eleven years ago) link
spotify's sated my "everything i want, when i want it, now" internet urges, but good luck guilting me off a legal streaming service
― da croupier, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:41 (eleven years ago) link
I have avoided knowingly downloading free non-artist-sanctioned music without payment for a good... 8 years now; it's not really that difficult
― Victory Chainsaw! (DJP), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:41 (eleven years ago) link
Old people can be poor, Shakey.
― how's life, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:41 (eleven years ago) link
I know that, that's why I put "rich" after it. Like, I don't feel bad about d/l'ing Neil Young albums, for ex. I've given that dude a lot of money over the years, and he's already richer than god.
― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:43 (eleven years ago) link
yes hence why I said "reproduced" and not "produced". obviously someone has to pay some small amount for bandwidth or if they want to store it on a server but I'm saying that just copying data doesn't cost anything, hence why that analogy doesn't even worse on the simplest level
― frogbs, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:43 (eleven years ago) link
it works as an analogy because producing music - like food, shelter, or clothing - costs money, no matter how much you would like to think otherwise.
― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:44 (eleven years ago) link
The fact that costs are nominal or extremely spread does not mean they are nonexistent.
― Julie Derpy (Phil D.), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:45 (eleven years ago) link
i don't plan to change anything but i've already mostly stopped downloading in favor of spotify so it doesn't matter much. i think i would pay as much as $30 a month for spotify before even considering going back to a Life of Crime, so $10 is a bargain
― ciderpress, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:45 (eleven years ago) link
lol @ "no matter how much you would like to think otherwise", give me a break, I spend tons on this shit
you're still not understanding this very basic principle so I'm not really sure what to say. this is the same type of logic that leads the RIAA to sue teenagers for six-figure amounts. if I still all your food or clothes and throw it away, then you're cold and hungry. if I downloaded all your albums and didn't listen to them, literally nothing would change
― frogbs, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:49 (eleven years ago) link
ok obviously that should be *steal*
Speaking as a musician, I blame Spotify users more than casual downloaders for the shitty state of the music industry.
― emil.y, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:49 (eleven years ago) link
I mean does frogbs really think that Megaupload's operating costs were $0? Or that the costs of all nodes of a bittorrent transfer sum to $0? Because . . . no.
― Julie Derpy (Phil D.), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:50 (eleven years ago) link
if I still all your food or clothes and throw it away, then you're cold and hungry. if I downloaded all your albums and didn't listen to them, literally nothing would change
wait what? did I make all my own food and clothing in this scenario, in addition to all my albums? I don't understand.
― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:51 (eleven years ago) link
xp i don't. i'm not talking about transferring data, i'm just talking about copying it.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:52 (eleven years ago) link
keep digging
― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:53 (eleven years ago) link
does it matter?
― frogbs, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:53 (eleven years ago) link
i mean clearly you're going to do your best to misinterpret a pretty simple concept in order to get more lame digs on me, what's the point of arguing if you don't understand why you can't stream a pancake
― frogbs, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:54 (eleven years ago) link
Oh, I get it, he's assuming away input costs. OK. But then he's also assuming away opportunity costs, e.g., an artist saying, "Well, I could record this new song or album, but given that a bunch of knobs on the internet are just going to download it without paying, I could also just take an extra shift at the print shop and actually make money."
xp i'm not talking about transferring data, i'm just talking about copying it.
what is this i don't even
― Julie Derpy (Phil D.), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:54 (eleven years ago) link
I can stream a pancake but I have to eat it first
― Victory Chainsaw! (DJP), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:55 (eleven years ago) link
Transferring is copying. Copying is transferring. Opportunity costs are real costs. Every MB of a hard drive taken up by music you copied from CDs at the library is an MB that can't be allotted to something else. This is simple shit, here.
― Julie Derpy (Phil D.), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:55 (eleven years ago) link
this thread is a lot more fun after i gave up caring and just decided to watch shakey and frogbs and iatee circle around each in a festive dance of faulty logic and useless generalizations
― Planned Perrintweet (some dude), Wednesday, January 18, 2012 6:47 PM (5 months ago) Bookmark Flag Post Permalink
― here's my lumber, so jack me maybe (some dude), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:56 (eleven years ago) link
i'm not talking about transferring data, i'm just talking about copying it.
god this is so fucking stupid. it's like you think the only point at which money was required in the music industry is at the point of sale of a physical product. But when you bought an album you weren't just paying for the physical costs of pressing and distributing an album, you were paying for the engineers, for the studio time, for the gear used, for the time the artist spent writing and creating the material, for the promotional costs, etc etc. This is because the purchase of the physical product was the most reliable point in the chain of music created -> you listening to it from which to extract financial compensation. Now that that's gone, there is NO point in the chain through which the musician can financially recoup their expenses for creating a piece of recorded work.
xp
― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:57 (eleven years ago) link
I might use the time to finally get Spotify.
― a regina spektor is haunting europe (Alfred, Lord Sotosyn), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:58 (eleven years ago) link
I can't really roll with Spotify except as a previewing service for what I might wanna buy/which tracks I wanna cherry-pick. Spotify just sounds really bad a lot of the time. Like markedly worse than a 192 bit MP3. I think it might be a label by label thing in how they supply their digital files or something. Listen to for ex 'My Old School' on Spotify. The backing singers sound really really weird. Same for lots of classical music and film scores on there.
― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 17:59 (eleven years ago) link
(disregard the above if the paid service gives you a higher stream quality or w/e)
― Lewis Apparition (Jon Lewis), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 18:00 (eleven years ago) link
yeah I already got it. it doesn't *literally* cost nothing but it's not exactly related to the initial cost of production. with a physical good, the cost to buy is very related to the cost of production. whether you spend $200 or $2000000 on producing an album it's going to cost the same amount to distribute a copy to someone else. got it?
But then he's also assuming away opportunity costs, e.g., an artist saying, "Well, I could record this new song or album, but given that a bunch of knobs on the internet are just going to download it without paying, I could also just take an extra shift at the print shop and actually make money."
exactly. I'm not saying this is going away. I never said that artists don't have to spend money to make recordings. Just that the analogy doesn't make sense and we've all bagged on the RIAA for years and years for assuming it does.
― frogbs, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 18:01 (eleven years ago) link
I don't bother with spotify because - like EVERY other streaming service before it - it's catalog is woefully incomplete. and yeah then there is the payment thing.
― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 18:01 (eleven years ago) link
about half of my pre-iPod listening time was on cassettes and car radios so i'd be totally fronting if i said i ever think about or mind the fidelity or mp3s or streams, even if i notice the difference.
― here's my lumber, so jack me maybe (some dude), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 18:01 (eleven years ago) link
with a physical good, the cost to buy is very related to the cost of production.
lol in what universe
― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 18:02 (eleven years ago) link
some dude OTM
― Victory Chainsaw! (DJP), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 18:02 (eleven years ago) link
like I get that's how it's supposed to work in Econ Theory 101 but in the real world that is just not the case
― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 18:03 (eleven years ago) link
god this is so fucking stupid. it's like you think the only point at which money was required in the music industry is at the point of sale of a physical product.
yeah I stopped reading here because you're putting a lot of words in my mouth. you really think I don't know it takes money to create the music? what I'm saying is there's a difference between a product that costs you $5 to make and distribute vs. a product that costs $10000 to make but $0 (okay, a few cents) to distribute. say you sell each for $10. if Product A sells 50,000 but you get 50,000 stolen, you broke even and that sucks. if you sell 50,000 of Product B then you made $40,000 regardless of how many are stolen. get it?
― frogbs, Tuesday, 19 June 2012 18:05 (eleven years ago) link
*sigh*
backing away slowly
― a dense custard of infinity (Shakey Mo Collier), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 18:06 (eleven years ago) link
IMO bitching about a streaming service having an incomplete catalog makes absolutely no sense; would you expect a single record label to release every album you've ever wanted to hear, from the past to the present? If not, why would you expect that of a streaming service? Even paid television subdivides into packages and different carriers may offer different channels. Neither Hulu nor Netflix has every television show or movie ever made available for physical rental, let alone download. It's a wholly unrealistic expectation; the question shouldn't be "do they have EVERYTHING?", it should be "do I like enough of what they have?"
― Victory Chainsaw! (DJP), Tuesday, 19 June 2012 18:07 (eleven years ago) link