"OK Computer": Classic Or Dud?

I think they have a very overt sense of humor. Whether or not that's taken on board is up to a listener, I think.

Xpost with Dan, unsurprisingly.

I also don't think of "Fake Plastic Trees" when I think of lyrics that are "extreme in their portentousness" or "doom-laden dystopias" but I listened to a LOT of industrial.

"gravity always wins" -- extremely dry humor, given the subject

Well it's a personal thing. I'm not really criticising them as much as stating my reasons for not really being interested in them. It just feels to me like the world of their music is emotionally remote from me largely due to it seemingly coming from a closed set of references, that is their music, for me, never exists in relation to the real world, but to a pre-negotiated rock history, I would argue that the "coldness" referred to by so many posters upthread is as much a product of this as it is of the production.

Ned, I know that explaining jokes makes them not funny, but could you point me to this sense of humour because I genuinely don't see it. This (as with everything else I've said) might be a product of how radiohead are framed for me, being 10 when it came out, the whole thing passed over my head so I have come to them as pre-cannonised rock monsters (similarly Drake and Cobain, hence my particular perspective), and it is pretty debatable how much of my impression of them is a result of a failure to overcome the initial ways they were presented to me through my own experience of actually listening to the music.

"karma police, arrest this girl, her Hitler hairdo is making me feel ill".

I think the gloom may be in thom's singing rather than his lyrics cause i always think his lyrics are more than often sardonic rather than woe-is-me gloom.

Who's in bunker?
Who's in bunker?
Women and children first
And the children first
And the children
I'll laugh until my head comes off
I'll swallow till I burst
Until I burst

Karma police, arrest this man, he talks in maths
He buzzes like a fridge, hes like a detuned radio
Karma police, arrest this girl, her hitler hairdo, is making me feel ill
And we have crashed her party
This is what you get, this is what you get
This is what you get, when you mess with us

Karma police, Ive given all I can, its not enough
Ive given all I can, but were still on the payroll
This is what you get, this is what you get
This is what you get, when you mess with us
And for a minute there, I lost myself, I lost myself
And for a minute there, I lost myself, I lost myself

For a minute there, I lost myself, I lost myself

I find most of this song incredibly sardonic; seriously, imagine someone saying "Arrest this girl, her Hitler hairdo is making me ill!" That's not really a straight-faced comment to make!

(xpost: HA Roz OTM)

The music between OK Computer and In Rainbows is still geared predominantly towards a mainstream stadium audience.

I suppose you could read like that. It just feels a bit unintentional to me.

The music between OK Computer and In Rainbows is still geared predominantly towards a mainstream stadium audience

Might just be me but I kinda find it hard to believe they all sat down together one day and said, "Let's gear our music predominantly towards a mainstream stadium audience."

I'm not saying that, Ned. I have a meeting to go to now but will try to explain later.

(xp)

Some of the lyrics ARE dark and depressing ("Idioteque" being a good example) but contrast that with "yesterday I woke up sucking a lemon"/"there are two colors in my hair" (uh, waht) or "You can try the best you can/The best you can is good enough" (lol fakeout). Everybody imposes their own perception upon art but there are certain artists who invite monochromaticism from their critics/audience; Radiohead is definitely one of those artists.

Also their music has been geared towards a mainstream audience since day one! hi dere they did "CREEP"

oh sorry missed the word "stadium"...

I've never seen them in concert so I can't really speak to that other than point out that they were playing stadiums at the time, ergo anything they were going to do would be de facto for a stadium audience.

Radiohead are a band that those of us who are not overly in love with, feel a need to rationalise our feelings. For whatever reason.

To my mind, and Dan can back me up here I'm sure, their music often at that stage felt like Depeche Mode's after 1988 or so when it came to being 'stadium-friendly' -- in that while Depeche more obviously rely on anthemic singles, both bands in their calmer, quieter modes recorded and released songs that seem like the total antithesis of mass-audience rabble rousers, quite literally in terms of sound as much as anything else. Close, 'across the room,' intimate -- consider "Dream On" in Depeche's case, and that was a lead single! That many of these songs were then performed in concert in cavernous stadiums is, as Dan notes, a measure of the bands' popularity rather than some sort of specific sonic intent.

I love to read but the last week's discussion is too long even for me. Anyway, someone upthread said they saw Radiohead this week and it was the best of their life - I have to say that their Toronto show was fantastic as well. I have never been further away from a band (except for SARStock) in my life but I enjoyed the show immensely. Even their few recent albums which I never got into really came to life in the outdoor arena setting. I've seen them 4 times before and they never disappoint, but my boyfriend never had and he was absolutely mesmerized. Yaydiohead!

I think Dan's line about "Creep" kind of nails my point, only from the opposite direction, I suspect. R'head probably never did sit down and say "let's make a stadium rock album" because they didn't need to. They also (I assume) never sat down and said "let's make a genuinely freaky experimental album that alienates our fanbase", ergo the material from Kid A through HTTT kind of IS stadium rock in funny clothes' stadium-rock isn't just Bryan Adams and Foreigner, it's also Led Zep, Pink Floyd, Depeche Mode (as Ned illustrates).

My objection to the stadium rock point wasn't because I really don't think that Radiohead can be considered stadium rock; it was because that was then followed up by comparing them to Jeff Beck and Joy Division! It's a little bit like "uh pick a rhetorical line or at least flesh out what you're trying to say a bit more". If the point was "Radiohead is the Joy Division of stadium rock", I can see that as a coherent, cogent argument.

Are New Order stadium rock? Had JD continued, NO never existed, JD done two more albums and then split, would they be able to reunite now and sell-out arenas?

I think that hints at what I was originally trying to get at. I never said I wanted to knock radiohead down, (although I do resent them being pushed in my face so much as a "great band") I just cannot relate to them at all because I feel like their world view is always filtered through a very self concious way of how a "great band" is supposed to behave (by behave I don't mean their demeanour or publicity I mean behave through music and following up OKC with KidA).

I just don't feel like they live in my world, I feel like they live in a very constructed world made of all the "right" touchstones.

i mean xp

I feel like they live in a very constructed world made of all the "right" touchstones

What, and we don't?

I don't want to anyway

I think I pretty much agree; I don't 'get' R'head like many do, and that causes problems because they're a very useful shorthand for a lot of people, a very assumed like. If you're 'into music' without a caveat of opera or country or something very specific and genre-focused, i.e. 'rock' 'indie' 'pop' whatever mainstream, the you MUST think R'head are THE BEST at what they do, and that what they do is also THE BEST thing TO do.

It's not exciting, even their keraazyness seems so obvious

Thanks for making Radiohead sound like Coldplay, guys.

I feel like their world view is always filtered through a very self concious way of how a "great band" is supposed to behave (by behave I don't mean their demeanour or publicity I mean behave through music and following up OKC with KidA).

This, btw, is kind of a classic example of hating a band because of its fans.

It so isn't btw

Yes it is. That is the critical and fan reaction to Kid A parrotted back almost to a T.

I think the problem I have with Radiohead somehow has to do with ... tastefulness... The pain in their music is ... heavy, humourless boy pain. ...<T>heir pathos feels so abstracted and heavy... It never winks at its own histrionics.

-- i know, right?

I just cannot relate to them at all because I feel like their world view is always filtered through a very self concious way of how a "great band" is supposed to behave... I just don't feel like they live in my world, I feel like they live in a very constructed world made of all the "right" touchstones.

-- I know, right?

I feel like their world view

I was just trying to put voice on the haters perspective

ie me

And even I'm not a complete hater and have enjoyed a small amount of their music (see above)

Yes it is. That is the critical and fan reaction to Kid A parrotted back almost to a T.

^ this.

I'd enjoy their (2000s) music more if it was constructed and delivered less for a mainstream radio / tv / internet audience.

Yes it is. That is the critical and fan reaction to Kid A parrotted back almost to a T.

someone please elaborate on this because I don't understand what you mean by this at all.

x-post -- "Nigel, can you record us throwing a bunch of rocks down a stairwell and then loop our farts over it?"

that's a horrible way of disagreeing with what he said (which I also do)

I love Radiohead and don't mean to endorse the above complaints. But I can see where the self-important claim comes from. Lots of big alt-y bands in the 90s (e.g. REM, Pearl Jam, Nirvana) complained about being famous, and also complained about social and political ills. So the complaints end up getting conflated (I'd say by unsympathetic listeners/critics), but the bands don't help when they make documentaries like Meeting People Is Easy, and interviewing like "this record almost destroyed the band/my sanity". The reason I mention the 90s is because this kind of attitude was common then but isn't now; but Radiohead is one of the few bands to be huge during the whole span.

I'd enjoy their (2000s) music more if it was constructed and delivered less for a mainstream radio / tv / internet audience.

-- Scik Mouthy

I wouldn't rope in the bands external behaviour (by which I mean interviews unless they very specifically referred to the music) because it's a bit of a strawman argument so I hope nobody thinks that's what I'm basing what I'm saying on (although I admit to being possibly subconciously influenced by this)

wrt condenderizer

I think, of all bands, I always feel like Radiohead are a very self conscious band.

They feel like their sound is very much an idea of what a modern rock band should sound like. The whole thing is just so servicable to me. They don't feel like a band that are going to surprise you in any way.

someone please elaborate on this because I don't understand what you mean by this at all.

The statement you made ("they were doing what they think great bands should do") is almost word-for-word what critics said about Kid A when it came out ("this is what great bands do; follow up their most ambitious album to date with something that is a stylistic detour and also a total masterpiece omg spooge"). You are taking the hype that enveloped the album after it came out and attributing it back to the band.

They don't feel like a band that are going to surprise you in any way.

wau you are young

I'd say In Rainbows is the first album they've released since Pablo Honey that I found unsurprising.

Might just be me but I kinda find it hard to believe they all sat down together one day and said, "Let's gear our music predominantly towards a mainstream stadium audience."

-- Ned Raggett, Tuesday, 19 August 2008 13:52 (2 hours ago) Link

It's not as cut-and-dried as a "let's go stadium rock" band meeting. It's subtler. Once a band does a stadium tour, there's a tendency to consider that venue while writing their new songs.

except I don't think Kid A is stylistically that different from Ok Computer

In fact I'd agree with you on the hype around Kid A being entirely critiic constructed, because I really don't think the music bears it out. It is just a be bleepy compared to the other one.