Are white people who say "I don't like hip hop" yet listen to it when white people make it really saying "i don't like black people"?

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you're right ethan, that's the extent of homophobia in rap, harmless little battle-rap asides, it's totally meaningless & certainly no gay men should take offense

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:44 (eighteen years ago) link

and I really don't want to be seen as an apologist for dudes getting a thrill out of the misogyny in music, but, you know, apart from social power dynamics between the genders (which of course, can't be abstracted away, not least because of the actual incidence of violence against women), I get a similar thrill out of P.J. Harvey's psycho I'm-going-to-kill-my-boyfriend schtick on Rid of Me. I'm just saying, I sort of get it. not that it's okay.

horseshoe (horseshoe), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:45 (eighteen years ago) link

good luck on explaining away "bitch" and "ho" btw E - you gonna go with "some women ARE bitches," maybe? '

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:46 (eighteen years ago) link

name a rap single in the top 40 from the past year with the word faggot in it

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:46 (eighteen years ago) link

rock still more misogynist than rap, rap still more interested in gender dialogue (what genre has female answer records for every sexist jam, & vice versa (too short - my balls my sac))

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:47 (eighteen years ago) link

Padgett = that herb from 90210 with the baseball cap that chilled with Brian Austin Green who accidently shot himself.

Yo, what was that kids name ?

Sadat X, Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:47 (eighteen years ago) link

you know those racist neo-cons who pretend to care about womens' rights in order to justify bombing the shit out of muslims...

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:48 (eighteen years ago) link

xpost byron crawford x stan

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:49 (eighteen years ago) link

if only black rob could see you now

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:50 (eighteen years ago) link

rock still more misogynist than rap

utter bullshit. and there isn't a "female answer record for every sexist jam" - all the fucking jams are sexist! fuckin' ALL of them! calling women "bitches" is sexist, period, just like whites using the N-word is racist whether they mean any harm by it or not - that you're desensitized to it (or don't give a shit about about women's cultural or subcultural status) doesn't mean it's all a-ok

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:51 (eighteen years ago) link

I mean Ethan just be upfront about it say you don't give a shit, your justifications are really sad & beneath you

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:51 (eighteen years ago) link

also, an aside to to dude who stalks Ethan: fuck you, Ethan may be up his own ass about gender relations but he's not a total moron like yrself

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:52 (eighteen years ago) link

and what about all this homophobic r&b by mary j & beyonce & ciara that this dude seems to hate more than rap

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:52 (eighteen years ago) link

john maybe you should try actually listening to rap

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:53 (eighteen years ago) link

instead of going all save-a-hoe on me - im never gonna hear the end of that from this dude!!

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:53 (eighteen years ago) link

name a rap single in the top 40 from the past year with the word faggot in it

Name a rock single in the top 40 from the 1960s with the words "marijuana" or "LSD" in it.

Michael Daddino (epicharmus), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:53 (eighteen years ago) link

I don't think that rock v. rap, which is more hateful toward women debate is really productive, but I also don't think it's at all clear which is more so.

I want to say something about the use of the word "bitch," but I can't formulate it without sounding like a self-hater, so...

horseshoe (horseshoe), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:55 (eighteen years ago) link

Beyonce really isn't the best person to mention when yr trying to prove that R&B isn't homophobic.

Dom Passantino (Dom Passantino), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:55 (eighteen years ago) link

Robbie R aint seein' shit but jailbars and fuck that fat bitchmade buppie Crwaford.

Sadat X, Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:55 (eighteen years ago) link

john maybe you should try actually listening to rap

The same way you listen to rock?

Ned Raggett (Ned), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:56 (eighteen years ago) link

okay so lets say Stephen Merrit enjoys clever, melodic wordplay suffused with arch tragedy over cool synth lines --- rap oughta be his favorite shit ever, right??

I'm not gonna get on a high horse about minstrelsy --- to me thats just a word for a kind of awkward cultural conversation that there's no way around ---- but it does seem kind of weak-ass to say OH THE CARICATURES NOWADAYS ARE SO MUCH WORSE cause back then race relations were cute but when I hear these folks shouting angry things in the street right outside my window in the present tense goodness sakes I just find that distasteful!!!

reacher, Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:57 (eighteen years ago) link

ethan name a rap album from the present decade without the word "bitch" in it

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:58 (eighteen years ago) link

haha trife did you ever read the flagpole interview with merritt?

fucking hell athens all over this thread now!

j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:58 (eighteen years ago) link

Why doesn't anyone quote Merritt in full and verbatim when characterizing either him or his views?

Eazy (Eazy), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:59 (eighteen years ago) link

i think the dynamics of straight males & homophobia is vastly, uncomparably different from white males & racism, or males & sexism - what straight guy in the world has never been fag-bashed? what straight male couldnt start sucking dick tomorrow and become a member of a minority which makes it 'ok' to start saying fag? if what i hear about the most homophobic rappers who do already they got their passes a long time ago

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:59 (eighteen years ago) link

http://datelinehollywood.com/wp-content/PatRobertsonimage.jpg
all the fucking jams are sexist! fuckin' ALL of them!

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 16:59 (eighteen years ago) link

I'm sure Atmosqueer never uses the word bitch.

Sadat X, Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:00 (eighteen years ago) link

hahaha ok funny again

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:00 (eighteen years ago) link

cowboy troy in answer to yr 'bitch' question btw

j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:00 (eighteen years ago) link

can i point out in that invisble jukebox type then that dude was repulsed by fuckin CEE LO GREEN IS THE SOUL MACHINE not eazy e or some shit - thats hardly even rap!!

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:01 (eighteen years ago) link

According to quick google, slug sez "I feel like a bitch for letting the sheet twist me up"

deeej, Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:02 (eighteen years ago) link

and as the writer pointed out he seemed to just have this immediate kneejerk disgust at a southern black man talking about himself on the intro to a song, not issues with homophobia or what the fuck ever insane justifications youve come up with for dudes racism

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:02 (eighteen years ago) link

"We should invade their countries, kill their leaders and convert them to Christianity."

now see what ann coulter was tryna say here, without actually saying it or anything, of course,, is that as a woman she feels threatened by the sexist laws of modern islam, and its perfectly within her rights to feel that, as a woman, you know

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:04 (eighteen years ago) link

thomas if i disagree with merritt's assertion that duke ellington ruined american music by 'africanizing' it and that's why the pop charts are filled with 'mongrels' now (ca. spring 2000) and that's why abba could never chart now (note: at time of assertion the a*teens had an album of abba covers in the top ten) does that make me a homophobe or just a misogynist? if i think ciara or freak nasty aren't as misogynist as neil young or the rolling stones (or stephin merritt) am i desensitized? also what's yr five favorite homophobic cee-lo or beyonce tracks?

j blount (papa la bas), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Spike Lee wept.

erklie (erklie), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:05 (eighteen years ago) link

Blount, quotes please.

Eazy (Eazy), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:06 (eighteen years ago) link

Damn, yo..Slug be doggin' them raggedy ass teenage Minnesota sluts that jock him.

How about Sage Fagcis ?

Sadat X, Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:06 (eighteen years ago) link

uncomparably different from white males & racism, or males & sexism

the homophobia dynamic is different (that's why it's the one you prefer to address) - the sexism one isn't, except that it's worse, because it's a population who unquestionably holds most/all (ymmv) of the power using language ("bitch," "ho") to subjugate/further subjugate the historically disenfranchised population - men calling women "bitch" is no less hurtful, nor less odious, than white men calling black men by the N-word

x-post trife you gotta get off coulter's jock one of these days

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:06 (eighteen years ago) link

merritt's assertion that duke ellington ruined american music by 'africanizing' it

citation?

erklie (erklie), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:07 (eighteen years ago) link

ya'll are fucking dumb. the only time there's ever outrage in these parts is 1) when a white guy uses the word "nigger" or 2) when someone white doesn't like hiphop. Stop getting outraged on behalf of people who don't give a shit.

Anwarpo Nanainrt, Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:07 (eighteen years ago) link

(sorry, j.b., read too fast and fucked up.)

Eazy (Eazy), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:07 (eighteen years ago) link

Curious question: can someone explain the difference between Cee Lo Green's little skit at the beginning of that song and the ubiquitous mincing limp-wristed lisping schtick that probably 90%+ of gay men have used at one point or another? I seriously doubt the artifice of the latter bothers Merritt as much as the former.

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:08 (eighteen years ago) link

men calling women "bitch" is no less hurtful, nor less odious, than white men calling black men by the N-word

what position are you in to argue either of these things? for the record women weren't denied humanity by birthright, unless they were black women, and theres no lineage of government-constructed poverty running through women in american history

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:09 (eighteen years ago) link

"for the record women weren't denied humanity by birthright"

Uh what?

Alex in SF (Alex in SF), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:10 (eighteen years ago) link

I dunno James, whatever. I'm not that interesting in a big ol' pissing contest, I get heated up about this question just because I'd expect Ethan and yourself to care a little more about it. I'm just always puzzled/bummed-out by white dudes on ilm who'll rep for sane racial attitudes all day and don't give two shits about misogyny, and will even twist themselves into pretzels to argue that open misogyny is actually part of some fantastic gender-relations dialogue...and will lean on answer records for their evidence

xpost with:

what position are you in to argue either of these things? for the record women weren't denied humanity by birthright, unless they were black women, and theres no lineage of government-constructed poverty running through women in american

yes, they were. For about four thousand years. And denying women the right to the workplace is gov't-constructed poverty.

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:11 (eighteen years ago) link

Alex Ethan never read those books, he's ONLY interested in race - women had it pretty good in colonial America! three hots 'n' a cot!

Thomas Tallis (Tommy), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:11 (eighteen years ago) link

KOOL G. RAP YOU KNOW I BREAK A BITCH NECK

KOOL G RAP, Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:11 (eighteen years ago) link

i mean actual literal humanity, status as a person and not an animal

-+-+-+++- (ooo), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:12 (eighteen years ago) link

women weren't denied humanity by birthright, unless they were black women, and theres no lineage of government-constructed poverty running through women in american history

therefore, calling women 'bitches' is peachy. Also, the US never denied Jews humanity by birthright, so let's unload on them, too.

erklie (erklie), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:12 (eighteen years ago) link

Here's what Merritt has said - in an interview in Mojo about his own music (and appears to be talking about melody over rhythm in pop music) -

"Rock should have consisted of only the Paul McCartney branch, not the Lennon/Jagger/Richards one," he mourns archly. Detesting the very idea of white blues ("it's fundamentally racist"), he admits that his own aesthetic universe�from Nordic synthipop to redneck C&W�is "so darn white!" "I'm not so concerned with rhythm or syncopation, which are the main concerns of black music after Duke Ellington."

Eazy (Eazy), Thursday, 11 May 2006 17:13 (eighteen years ago) link


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